From Courtrooms to Campaigns: JD's Journey of Advocacy

Join us for an engaging conversation with JD Tomlinson, the Lorain County Prosecutor, as he shares his unique journey from the private sector to the political arena, driven by a passion for justice and defending the underdog. JD opens up about the ethical complexities defense attorneys face in determining truth amidst flawed testimonies, and how his transition to politics allowed him to advocate more effectively for justice. Through his candid reflections, you'll gain insights into his personal motivations and values, shaped by years of defending those without a voice.

Our discussion takes a deep dive into the controversial cases of Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen, where JD recounts the curious twists of withheld evidence and judicial oversight that questioned their convictions. With a focus on ethical dilemmas and prosecutorial responsibilities, JD explores the critical role evidence plays in fair legal outcomes. We underscore the resilience of those wrongfully convicted, highlighting the immense challenges in seeking justice and compensation for years lost to an imperfect system.

We then pivot to broader societal issues, from police use of force to community engagement and political campaigning. JD offers valuable lessons on bridging political divides and the significance of building relationships with voters. His experiences with diversion programs reveal the potential for rehabilitation over punishment, while his insights into the pandemic response and personal anecdotes paint a vivid picture of navigating challenges in both professional and personal spheres. Tune in for a thought-provoking episode that challenges perceptions and emphasizes the power of collective action in shaping our communities.

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Proud winner of the Nobel "I Tried" Ribbon in Literature.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

you probably can pull it up on that laptop now how do you do that?

Speaker 2: 0:05

I don't, I don't need to, it's all right. I like the theme music. Is this original? Jimmy isn't being a cheap ass, you know I'm like you heard it here first.

Speaker 1: 0:13

I picked it somewhere.

Speaker 2: 0:14

Right, we're the best you know they say people that cuss are more honest, so I'm an honest motherfucker. Put the fish away, reggie. It don't even hurt to give birth anymore, not for me, nothing to it.

Speaker 1: 0:30

Let's do it. Come on, I'm ready. I'm ready, I want to do it. I wear a thong.

Speaker 2: 0:36

I got what I'm right now.

Speaker 1: 0:36

You want to see Jimmy and Guy man. I was Bartok's baby man.

Speaker 2: 0:40

this is a bunch of shit, if you ask me. All right, we're doing a special podcast, not just a bunch of shit if you ask me.

Speaker 1: 0:44

That doesn't make no sense. All right, we're doing a special podcast today where we're going to interview Lorain County Prosecutor's Own, JD Tomlinson. Thanks for having me, Jimmy. Welcome to the show. Thank you for coming in.

Speaker 2: 0:59

I really appreciate it. I've been wanting to for a while.

Speaker 1: 1:02

Yeah, this is awesome. Tomorrow's the big day. Tomorrow's the big day, so tomorrow's a big day. You're getting it just in time. I am, I am, I'm happy to be here, brother. You now, what in the world made you go into the political Cause? You were in a private sector.

Speaker 2: 1:15

Yeah, I mean, maybe it was a mistake, I don't know, I could. I could tell you that what really happened was I did defense work for like 15 years and I didn't want to work for a boss, I wanted to be my own boss. And so they made a pretty easy decision to kind of put my own shingle out and I did that. I really enjoyed it. I mean I enjoy the defense work. Maybe it's because I was always kind of for the little guy, yeah, and I enjoyed that camaraderie that happens, believe it or not, between you and the defendants. Kind of you guys against the world and I believe in it. And it's kind of you guys against the world and I believe in it. I believe that everybody deserves counsel.

Speaker 1: 1:45

And what about when they're like? You know, they're like this dirty motherfucker. Like I mean right.

Speaker 2: 1:54

Well, you know, you know. The funny part is you don't really think of it that way, because when you get involved in the practice for so long, you start to realize it's very difficult to know exactly what happened. Now you realize that the vast majority of people did something. Do you know what I mean? They wouldn't beat it. But what you start to realize is that it's hard to know what the truth really is, because some of the witnesses in this case are defendants in other cases. You know what I mean, and so the credibility of the witnesses are difficult. Sometimes Some of my clients were very good at telling me what they thought occurred, and sometimes it was consistent with the evidence. You know what I mean, so, but yeah, I mean I was not naive.

Speaker 1: 2:28

But there was some right that you're just like, oh man.

Speaker 2: 2:31

You know what? There might've been some that I disapproved of the actions they were taking, but it was never where it affected the way I represented them, because I think in the end, defense attorneys, they want to win.

Speaker 1: 2:42

Yeah, you just want to win regardless.

Speaker 2: 2:43

Yeah they want to win. Yeah, you just want to win regardless. Yeah, you want to win. I mean, and you believe in the system that, hey, you know it should be difficult to convict somebody of a crime, it shouldn't be easy. And so I believed in it, I believed in the system. Now, there was nothing that would have stopped me from becoming a prosecutor. I would be fine with both sides, because if you believe in the system the way it is, then parts are interchangeable. Yeah, you know what?

Speaker 1: 3:04

I mean Absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2: 3:05

So if you, believe that everybody you know, everybody you know, deserves counsel and they deserve to have a prosecutor and the citizens deserve that. It's an easy decision to go back and forth. Lawyers don't think of it in terms of that. It's a big deal to go back and forth from doing defense work to prosecution, because they believe in the system, which I do believe in. I do believe in it. But back to your question about guilt. Yes, I was not unaware of the fact that most of my clients had problems, you know, when it comes to the evidence. But the way I like to describe it is I did have innocent clients at times. It wasn't a lot of clients that were innocent, but it was more than maybe the average person would feel comfortable with, Because it's kind of easy to go in and get charged, well, in your Lorain County.

Speaker 1: 3:48

So I mean that's, I mean there is like there's a lot of like just bullshit crimes.

Speaker 2: 3:54

I mean, I mean.

Speaker 1: 3:54

I honestly there is a lot of it that goes on in Lorain.

Speaker 2: 3:57

County. Well, you know what? It's almost everywhere, though you know, I guess I I don't necessarily agree that it has to do so much with here. I think there's a lot of places where maybe people disagree with what people are charged with. But what I can tell you is that the thing I found about the system was most of my innocent clients were filtered out Because what occurs is someone's charged. I would always do my due diligence, I'd find out these witnesses, I'd always talk with the alleged victims, find out what's going on, and then you start to with innocent clients. You start to produce evidence that shows their innocence, exculpatory evidence. You start developing it. I would have witnesses come in and sign affidavits, for example, on something that contradicted the state's evidence, and then, once you provide enough of that to the prosecutor's office, typically when you get a really just and righteous and ethical prosecutor, they start to go. We've got problems here. So most of the times in cases where I thought I had an innocent client, they would be filtered out and dismissed.

Speaker 1: 4:53

That's always my big fear with prosecutors. Like you said, as an attorney, you want to win. Yeah, and a prosecutor is an attorney too, and sometimes I feel like there's some tunnel vision that goes on with some of them. I'm not saying no, no, I think the vast majority of them don't.

Speaker 2: 5:09

But I think that you're right about that and I think what happens, Jimmy, is this is that they have a different standard than I do. I'm supposed to zealously represent my clients. They have to seek justice. That's different, Do you know? They have a different. There's different standards for them. My job is not to win or lose now. My job is to seek justice. So if that means dismissing a case that I think is bad, then I do that because I think it's just. But defense counsels don't necessarily have that duty.

Speaker 1: 5:36

They're to zealously represent so there's a little bit of difference. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 5:56

So I mean, do you think that's what happened with the Nancy Smith and the Joseph Allen case kid? And obviously I was in Fireland so I wasn't in Lorain, so I didn't really hear about stuff. But in 2009, 2010, when I was a young practicing attorney, maybe for about two or three years I started to follow the case because it became relevant again. There was some legal matters that were going on, maneuvering that were going on in that case, and Jim Burge was a mentor of mine, and so I was following what he was doing. And what interested me the most is he found a problem with the sentencing entry that allowed him to kind of reopen the case, and so what he did is he took that with the opportunity to review all the evidence, and what he did is he acquitted them after reviewing the evidence. Now, that was appealed by the state of Ohio. They didn't agree with his decision on that, and that's when he was a judge. That's when he was a judge, so he had acquitted them because what he had came to the same conclusion I came to years later is that there's just no possibility that they committed this crime and I don't think there's any possibility, real possibility, that a crime even occurred. And so he found that and the state fought him every inch of the way and then, once it got to the higher courts, it was determined through the Supreme Court that they disagreed with him. But he did have judges that agreed with the way he was doing things as well.

Speaker 2: 7:12

So what interests me the most as defense attorney is I knew prosecutors well enough to know at that point is OK, they've got an order now from the Supreme Court stating hey, put her back in prison, put both of them back in prison. And there was no need to negotiate because the defendants didn't have any leverage. It was hey, put them back in, that's it right. So the fact that they were negotiating with the defendants and eventually allowed Nancy Smith to be free, with credit for time served and she had to plead to certain cases, and then Joseph Allen had to go back to prison, but he had a determined sentence, I think in 10 more years or something, I thought well, why are they negotiating? If they really believe they committed these crimes? There's no negotiation.

Speaker 2: 7:53

I mean if you really believe that Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen did the crimes that they were alleged to have committed. There's no way you would ever think other than, hey, they got to serve every day. Sure, yeah, absolutely. And so I was fascinated on why is that happening? And I didn't understand it until I got involved in it. So I was kind of fascinated with that case and then when I ran the first time, I think I made some statement at one of the debates that I was kind of interested in reopening that case. That caused some controversy because that case is controversial, Although after you've reviewed the case, it's not controversial at all.

Speaker 2: 8:30

So what happened was when I got elected in 2020, I go, I want to see what's going on with this case, because Joseph Allen was still in prison at the time. So I got about two investigators that had 50 years of experience together. I mean Buddy Seibert and Steve Zacharias. Buddy Seibert's a longtime LPD guy. He probably has 50 murder cases that he's handled Just extremely diligent and smart investigators. And I also took a young attorney from the office that didn't have any kind of attachment to the case, wasn't from the area, because I wanted objective minds and I hope to come to a consensus. So we reviewed that case for about four or five months and what would happen is the investigators would go forward with the evidence and then I would trail behind them and so I was looking at the evidence after they looked at it and they would clue me in on certain things that they thought were important. It took us about four or five months and what really baffled me, Jimmy, was the fact that throughout the first maybe three months, all I was reading was exculpatory information. It was all evidence that would tend to show that these people committed no crime, and I'm thinking when am I going to get to the evidence that shows that they committed a crime, right? And what you find is that what happened was that the officers, really they were always trying to get it right, but the story started to change after time.

Speaker 2: 9:44

So initially in investigations the truth usually comes out early because people don't have time to commiserate, Right. So you usually get the truth normally in the in the first couple times you interview somebody, and then what they, what they had determined by a man named detective Cantu he was the first detective on the case was he was he was unconvinced that any crime had occurred. He was very. He thought it was a very problematic case. And so what happened is they told the families there was a, there was a woman that was leading the charge with her daughter, and they kind of told him hey, you guys can't be meeting and discussing the matter because it's going to, it's going to pollute the investigation, naturally, Sure.

Speaker 2: 10:19

Well, she didn't pay attention to that and she started meeting with the families and all of a sudden the story started changing. You know, went from we love Nancy, we don't. We know we didn't. Nothing happened to. Then. You know all this, all this, you know alleged molestation happened in the basement, Joseph Allen's basement. She would take, allegedly take them there with a bus. And so the story started to change. Not because of anything, I believe that the police were doing wrong. The story was starting to change and they weren't paying attention to, they weren't abiding by the police officers. You know, asking them please don't meet. So you could see in the evidence, you could see it change as time went on.

Speaker 1: 10:52

You could see the evidence. So they said that they took a bus and took the kids to Joseph Allen's house. So where?

Speaker 2: 10:59

were they supposed to be then At school and so? But the records. But the records would show that none of them were really ever absent at the same time, do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1: 11:07

Okay, and so you know what occurred was—, but none of the teachers at the school were accused of it.

Speaker 2: 11:13

No, no, it was kind of an out-there kind of allegation that you know you take these schools to school bus right on Broadway, you park it on Broadway, you have the kids exit the bus into the alleged victim's home and they were never missed at school. I mean, the allegations were so outrageous that it made it almost impossible just on its face that it seemed possible. You know what I mean. But what I could tell through the evidence was that I had no confidence that any crime occurred and I would leave sometimes the office kind of shaking my head privately to myself going. I can't believe something like this could happen in the United States.

Speaker 1: 11:51

I can't believe it. What initially started it? Do you know where the initial complaint was?

Speaker 2: 11:56

Yeah, there was an allegation from the woman who ended up suing Head Start and getting a significant amount of money, that her daughter had come home and she had found some evidence like a tree branch or tree leaves, and there was an allegation that there was a branch that was used or a stick on the young girl. However, that girl, that young girl, went to a got a pelvic exam. The pelvic exam was completely normal. No, you're kidding, yeah, so so what happened was? It started off kind of like that and it started growing like wildfire and I can imagine the amount of pressure that law enforcement was under at the time I can imagine was significant.

Speaker 1: 12:29

You know what I mean. Well, and that's during that time frame too, where they were, they didn't know how to interview victims and all those different daycares right throughout the country. We're getting that because they weren't they did, they were doing like the dolls wrong and they just didn't understand. Like what a kid didn't understand the psychology.

Speaker 2: 12:48

Yeah, because and it wasn't. It was good faith, I think, almost all the time, but they just didn't understand how to interview. And you talk to these investigators now and they'll admit to that, like we didn't know how to do it. You know what?

Speaker 1: 13:00

I mean yeah, we just thought we asked.

Speaker 2: 13:02

Yeah, I mean they were. They were in good faith, trying to figure out why these kids were saying this and and uh, they said it was too.

Speaker 1: 13:08

It was, it was part of. That was because this is the first time that that mothers weren't really watching kids in the in the like late seventies to the early nineties. That's like when you first took women out of the home. So then all of a sudden there's daycares and things like that that are so that was a big contributor and they had no you know, they didn't understand it, yet You're right and and obviously you know, I think at the time they believed well, if a child said it, it had to be true, sure.

Speaker 2: 13:35

You know, especially like how would a child know about certain you know sex phrases or something that the language that has to do with sex, and so I think that was that was contributing to this kind of perfect storm that was happening. And so you know it's funny, jimmy, I go home and I watch real crime stuff when I go home.

Speaker 1: 13:51

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 13:52

I love it I can't get enough of it. I mean, I deal with it all day and I still go home and I watch it, like the Netflix ones I like. I like anything. I like. What's the one? Forensic files I like those.

Speaker 2: 14:07

There's some that are better. I get into those a lot, and so when I get you know and I'll especially get into the ones where they talk about innocent people that have been, you know, exonerated, and I still have yet to see a case that's anywhere near this bad, as far as that, there's no way this should have happened. What about the making?

Speaker 1: 14:24

of a murderer.

Speaker 2: 14:25

You know what you know, that's an interesting one. That wasn't pretty bad, that was. And then, years later, there was another film that was produced just recently by the young conservative pundit, candace Owens yeah, where she has another documenter basically arguing that they did get the right guy and that the documentarian didn't present you with all the evidence. Now I don't know, I haven't seen that one, so it's very difficult to know, so wait, as a Democratic candidate you're admitting that you watch Candace Owens.

Speaker 2: 14:53

No, I think I just admitted I didn't. But you know what? To be fair, jimmy I think you probably know this about me I'm very open to different sides. That's wonderful, that's the way you should be. Voluminous amounts of evidence that was not handed over to defense counsel, and so you get. You get. You know.

Speaker 2: 15:06

When you read the trial transcript, you go okay, well, I guess I could see somehow, maybe that this could. And then when you but if you know the whole case, you go well, the trial transcript didn't include any of the exculpatory information because the defense counsel didn't receive it. Do you know what I mean? So it's completely two different investigations and two different transcripts. You see the real evidence. Then you see the stuff that's at trial and you know that they didn't get presented with it because A I know that intimately, I know that that's true. And secondarily, you know that the defense counsel would have hammered on those things. So you're like, wow, I mean, really there's a lot of evidence that was not gandered over. Who was their defense attorney? It was Jack Bradley and Joe man, the former county prosecutor Gosh. I can't believe I'm forgetting his name, I'm having a anyways, but there was two counsels. Each one had a counsel. Okay, grunda, joe Grunda. I'm so sorry, oh, grunda.

Speaker 1: 16:23

Yeah, yeah, that sounds familiar. Yeah, yeah, that sounds familiar, yeah.

Speaker 2: 16:25

Joe, and so they were kind of fighting with their hands time behind their back. Well, yeah, they didn't get the information. Yeah, and so you know they do receive criticism and Joe rest in peace, he's been gone with the evidence they had. I don't know, do you know what I mean, but it's the scariest case I've ever seen. And to really get to know Nancy the way I have, and to understand that not only was she victim in this and did 15 years for a crime that never even occurred. So imagine not only were you not the one that committed a crime and a crime occurred, imagine no crime ever occurred.

Speaker 1: 17:08

Yeah, that's even worse, it's even worse.

Speaker 2: 17:09

And so she did 15 years, he did 25. A lot of people, a lot of people forget about Joseph Allen and he did 25 years. And it's interesting because I'll get people that come up to me in Giant Eagle and they'll talk to me about the case and they'll always say you know nancy smith? I'll say, and joseph allen do you know?

Speaker 2: 17:30

what I mean, like they had it worse and and and he had, you know, 10 more years that he did. Yeah, and so when you get to know nancy, and just you know not only oh, I could go through the evidence for days about the inconsistencies, but but when you get to know nancy, it's just such a tragedy on so many levels. And not only that, she had young children at the time and you get to understand that their story was never really told. You know, and Amber and Courtney and all these and her children, they lost their mother at like 9, 10 to 15 years old.

Speaker 1: 17:56

And Bradley's a good attorney. So or he was a good attorney, I mean now he's a bad mayor but no, I don't know, I don't live in Lorraine I. I mean now he's a bad mayor.

Speaker 2: 18:03

But no, I don't know, I don't live in Lorraine. I don't know, I don't live in Lorraine, I don't live in.

Speaker 1: 18:06

Lorraine either. Yeah, yeah, I just give him shit, but I do.

Speaker 2: 18:13

I do sympathize with not receiving all the evidence. I mean it's crazy. It's fighting with your both hands. Yeah, absolutely, it's just so awful. I just so awful. I mean they had a much more difficult time that way. But yeah, her kid's story never got told about the idea that these people had to live without their mother in their most formative years.

Speaker 1: 18:34

Has anybody interviewed the kids since then? You know what I think there's been some efforts to do that.

Speaker 2: 18:38

I think that during her incarceration I think they were on a couple national TV shows. I haven't seen all of them but I don't think that story has been told fully about the devastation that that has on a family. But Nancy's a, and I don't know Joseph as well. I would talk more about Joseph, but I don't know him as well. But Nancy, what's amazing to her is that she doesn't have, she's not bitter Geez. I don't know how she can. I don't know how she's stronger than us Jim, because I don't know how she's not angry when she probably wasn't getting fucked in the ass like Joseph Allen was.

Speaker 1: 19:11

I'm being honest.

Speaker 2: 19:12

I mean, I mean, you know, it's a tough atmosphere and I don't know if any of that you know. It's true, Obviously, Jim, but it does go on.

Speaker 1: 19:20

I mean we know it does. Oh, 100%.

Speaker 2: 19:21

And that segment is targeted.

Speaker 1: 19:23

There's no doubt about it.

Speaker 2: 19:24

I mean, you know so, and they call them chomos yeah absolutely. But the truth of the matter is, yeah, that's even worse.

Speaker 1: 19:31

Yeah, of course it is. It's horrible.

Speaker 2: 19:33

But you know, you get to understand. And even Joseph, the small amount of interactions I've had with him is that he doesn't seem to have that bitterness that I thought I would have. Did they get any money?

Speaker 1: 19:43

They're working on it now, are they? Yeah, they're working on it now, so who would they sue in that case?

Speaker 2: 19:49

There's a couple different entities that you can go after. There's a statutory remedy for these types of incidents as well. So if you can prove that you were falsely imprisoned and you were falsely convicted, they do have a certain dollar amount that you're able to receive. I think it was in the $50,000 per year. So for every year you're falsely incarcerated, you can get $50-something thousand dollars. That's a big payment for them for sure.

Speaker 2: 20:14

Especially, you've got to start your life now, at this age, and no career or no savings, no, nothing Right through you know she was in her 30s I think when she was convicted, right during the most productive years of your life, and so, yeah, I mean they deserve every penny through the state. Now they have some private lawsuits going on with other entities and stuff like that and I can't probably comment on those because the county's involved in that. But what I can tell you is that you know the statutory amounts that are available to them. I mean I just don't see any reason why they they shouldn't be entitled to that, and it's sad how much the state will fight you.

Speaker 2: 20:52

You know, one of the things that Mark Gotsi, who was the attorney for the Ohio innocence project, told me that was kind of it blew my mind was he said you know, listen, I've done a lot of exonerees. I think he's got 40 or 50 exonerees. Okay, one of them just got like 30 or 40 million or something like that. And he said you were the only county prosecutor in the state of Ohio that actually apologized to the individuals. Wow, really. Now that seems ridiculous to me, because what a low standard for me to be a hero, jimmy because you're saying you're sorry for someone doing 40 years combined for this, oh my.

Speaker 1: 21:25

God.

Speaker 2: 21:26

To find out that it was that rare for for DAs to actually apologize to the exonerees, especially when it's evidence that is uncontrovertible. You know what I mean. Like DNA, for example, that's been tested, that's not the individual. To not say you're sorry Seems barbaric.

Speaker 1: 21:39

You just brought up the innocent project, which has to. Now that you brought it up, I the Innocent Project, which has to. Now that you brought it up, I got to go this direction. Sure sure, this Peterson shit.

Speaker 2: 21:47

Oh, the Peterson in California, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:50

Do you believe he's innocent?

Speaker 2: 21:51

Man, you know what you know. What I've learned with criminal cases is that unless you know the evidence intimately, it's very difficult to make a decision. That's not me obfuscating what it is being honest with you about. I've seen documentaries on it but I haven't sat and actually looked at all the evidence, so it's very difficult for me to say one way or the other.

Speaker 1: 22:10

But when it happened, when it actually happened. Do you remember it? Was it in like?

Speaker 2: 22:14

maybe 2006 or 5? Somewhere in that range, I do recall it because it had national, it was national.

Speaker 1: 22:22

And he was out fishing when he was. But the shit just don't add up.

Speaker 2: 22:26

No, I mean it's, it's, it's. He seemed to, and I think that you know he had the. He had the girlfriend and a girlfriend instantly, yeah, and I think he had made some statements to her over recorded lines and everything like that and I think he was like with her before it happened, like almost like he was getting rid of the old trash or something.

Speaker 2: 22:41

Yeah, and it was really the documentaries I've seen and the evidence I've seen is pretty damning, but I don't know what the other side's producing. I've learned to really. I remember there was a case in Lorain County and I can't remember which case it was. It was a high-profile case. It might have been the murder case out of Vermilion. Do you remember the woman that was charged with murder? Jack Bradley actually represented her. She was charged with murdering her husband. He was involved. Is there like some kind of sex toy shit going on or something.

Speaker 2: 23:07

Yeah, there was some pretty salacious, but I remember that case was going on and I think it was like eight or nine years before she was actually charged is when the murder occurred.

Speaker 2: 23:19

And then they charged her eight or nine years later and I remember that I was busy trying to make a living, you know, during that time and I wasn't really following it, although I had known that the victim in that case, the gentleman that was killed in high school, he was. He had a tree service and guys that I worked, that I were friends with, used to work for him, so I would see him every now and then and he was a, he was an out there kind of guy. I mean, you know, not that I'm saying you know he deserved anything, but he was. He seemed kind of like a violent guy, but but I remember someone had come on to Facebook and they said well, jd, what do you, what do you think of the case? And I said something revolutionary, jimmy, I said, well, I don't know, I haven't been in the trial, I have no idea what the evidence is. And they were kind of flabbergasted by that answer and I'm thinking well, that seems to be the most rational answer I could possibly give you man, is that I?

Speaker 1: 24:05

haven't seen the evidence, so what that shows me, though is that the public can be very quick to judge and not really see the evidence and that kind of scares me.

Speaker 2: 24:16

It scares me a little bit because I think you got to know what you don't know.

Speaker 1: 24:19

Okay, and so then, if we now were you around when Frank got in trouble down here at the Maple Inn, or was that before Frank? Yeah, frank down here that owns a Maple Inn, the one that was like that was was that that was before I was county prosecutor.

Speaker 2: 24:35

Yeah, yeah, that was sick man. Yeah, I think I recall that that was nuts.

Speaker 1: 24:40

Yeah, that was a. That was a horrible one, his son, his son had taped him.

Speaker 2: 24:44

I think I think he, I think he recorded his son having his that stuff too. But I think his son had got. I thought there was some kind of confession.

Speaker 1: 24:53

Recording. Yeah, he called him and said that he watches him still, or something to tape.

Speaker 2: 24:58

I can't remember exactly, I'll take your word for it, but I don't recall that case really well, to speak really at length about it.

Speaker 1: 25:04

Oh, that was sick. I mean, you said something about the sickness, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 25:08

Yeah, you have no idea what's going on in these houses. Oh it's, you have no idea. Well you know, we learned that with.

Speaker 1: 25:15

Ariel Castro, you know. I mean, did you drive through there after?

Speaker 2: 25:19

that happened. I did Because I'm one of those guys that likes to see crime scenes so close Unbelievable.

Speaker 1: 25:23

So close.

Speaker 2: 25:24

Oh yeah, how can you have three, three it's the psychological warfare that he was using with these women. He would leave and then not leave yeah, do you know what I mean? To see if they would come down. So they never really knew if he left or not. Sure, which was a pretty effective tool, probably for him. But I remember going and seeing that crime scene. I have a weird kind of hobby.

Speaker 1: 25:48

When you went was the chain link fence around it at that time. You know what?

Speaker 2: 25:50

I think I had seen it before they demolished it. They demolished it now. Now it's like a park, like a green space, yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:55

I went immediately and they had put a chain link fence around the whole property to keep people from going towards it, or whatever.

Speaker 2: 26:02

Yeah, because there's a lot of weirdos like you and I.

Speaker 1: 26:05

We were just in a convoy going past it Because it's so fascinating.

Speaker 2: 26:08

Oh yeah, Do you remember the serial killer in Cleveland I think they call him the Cleveland Strangler or whatever the gentleman that was on probation at the time. He killed like 11 or 12 people.

Speaker 1: 26:18

Do you remember that case?

Speaker 2: 26:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I remember driving by that case and that is very similar. It was over on Kingsman, yep, and I remember the houses were like six. It seemed like six inches apart they're not and I remember the detail that really—I was living in Lakewood at the time so I was a little more interested in what was going on in Cleveland, and so I remember going to the crime scene and I remember how close the houses were going and I remember one of the details was everybody in the neighborhood could smell something I don't know if you recall this detail and they all thought it was like the meat processing company that's right next to their house. So this meat pump if I remember correctly, the meat processing company spent thousands of dollars trying to dig up and find out what in the hell was going on. Why was it smelling so bad? Meanwhile, it's the decaying dead bodies next door.

Speaker 1: 27:42

Well, that was John Wayne Gacy too. Same thing. His house would stink real bad and people would talk about it, and he kept dumping lime in the basement and all that type of stuff.

Speaker 2: 27:53

It's like Jeffrey Dahmer, that was his excuse, I got meat. That's yeah, yeah, that spoils it. It's spoiling it Same thing.

Speaker 1: 27:57

And have you ever had? My mom one time left a tube of turkey in the trunk and man, it's bad, it is bad.

Speaker 2: 28:03

Although you know what? I had an uncle that was murdered and when I was a young guy, I was in high school and it was 99. And I it was a fascinating story. If you ever have a chance it's a really interesting story. But I went down and would search for him while I was in high school and we had searched the whole damn county. I mean, we were searching everything and we would tie ribbons around the trees so we knew where we had searched. The whole place was full of ribbons. And it turns out we thought the killer would kind of try to drive close nearby and try to drag his body as far as he could in the woods. Turns out he kind of did the opposite. He went as far from the scene as he could and dropped him on the side of the road. But I remember going there days after they had found him. But I remember going there days after they had found him. He had been decomposing for several months. Once you smell that smell, you'll never forget it and it's completely distinctive of any other smell.

Speaker 1: 28:51

I worked at CMHA housing when I was young and there was a woman died on a toilet. Nobody found her for like two weeks, oh my gosh, and I had to go in and there was a toilet that had the blood going down the side of it and stuff we had to get rid of it all, cleaned it up, yeah. So I went in there, I dumped bleach on everything, smacked it with a sledgehammer and we shuffled everything out of there, but that smell was in my nose for like probably two weeks and the box truck that we would use for the construction I don't think it probably still smells to this day. It was so horrific, so you've smelled it too.

Speaker 2: 29:26

Oh yeah, I mean, it's something you can never get out, and I think that if I smelled it again, I would recognize it immediately. Yeah, and I remember seeing where he was. Um, and the interesting thing is, the motive for this murder was that there was a rumor that my uncle had like eight grand, uh, stuffed in behind a, a Jeep, one of his cars. Yeah, he had a Jeep, cherokee, and he had a Jeep. What's the other Jeep? There's a Wrangler. He had a Cherokee and a Wrangler, right, right, right.

Speaker 2: 29:51

Well, the individual that killed him had him meet him at a bar. He ended up driving away with him and then he came back and he shot him while he was parked in a stone quarry across the street and there was an eyewitness at the bar that watched the shooting. And then my uncle was pushed over to the side. The guy came over and got into the jeep and took off. Well, it turns out the jeep, the money was in the wrong jeep. So this guy killed my uncle, thinking he was going to get eight grand. Is somewhere in the jeep that it was hidden. It was in the wrong jeep. Wow, he picked the wrong jeep.

Speaker 2: 30:18

So he killed him for nothing, jesus, yeah, I mean, it was a fascinating, I mean, and my guy, my uncle, was like 30. Oh that's sad. Yeah, it was really crazy. But you see what that violent death, what it does to a family is, is significantly different than than accidental or or natural causes. There's, there's something about a violent death that is different. The effects it has on a family, really, the anger seems to be different. Do you know what I mean? Because you could, you can kind of explain away an accident, or you can explain away a natural death, but when someone violently kills your family member, it's a different dynamic, yeah.

Speaker 1: 30:50

And if they're like my brother who overdosed, I'm mad at him. You know what I mean, and I have a right to be mad at him. I'm mad at the guy that sold them to him too, I know. I mean, I'm really at the end of the day, I'm mad at him. But if somebody else had killed my brother, that's a whole other story, Especially if I think they're walking around. Yeah, I'd be real pissed.

Speaker 2: 31:08

You know, I have a grandfather that was kind of a rebel right. He was a small guy. He was like 5'7" probably, weighed 140 pounds, soaking wet, and I remember my dad would always just give him a lot of respect and I always loved him and respected him too and I always asked him like you know what's what's going on with grandpa? He's like don't mess with grandpa. You know what I mean. Like he was one of those guys that were from Tennessee man that took justice into his own hands. You know what I mean. And he had that reputation as being fair. But you know, don't mess with him. And I remember talking with him when my dad or no, no, I don't think he- did, or maybe he did tell me about him.

Speaker 1: 31:47

Bradley's first big case was a murder trial for my dad. My dad was yeah, that was one of his first big cases, Is that right? And he beat the murder rat. Wow, it was a murder that happened outside of Three Star Restaurant while my dad was roofing the US Off of 28th. Is that 28th?

Speaker 2: 32:02

On 28th.

Speaker 1: 32:02

Street. Yeah, wow, and it's like 79.

Speaker 2: 32:06

Do you know how rare it is for someone to walk away from a?

Speaker 1: 32:08

murder case. Yeah, I owe having my dad around too. Jack Bradley, wow, no question, I mean, otherwise he wouldn't have been around.

Speaker 2: 32:16

You know what I mean?

Speaker 1: 32:18

Well, that's about the best commercial you can get? Yeah for sure. And he'll tell you that. He knows that. In fact, he'll tell you that my dad and his brothers kept an employed all the way up until probably the eighties. I'm a degenerate at heart. I really am. Like I own a business, but like I mean I'm a degenerate.

Speaker 2: 32:34

I mean, I'm not a heavy.

Speaker 1: 32:36

I don't use drugs, not a heavy drinker. I've never done any of that stuff because I've watched my dad and I don't mess with it. I stay away from it. I sit on my morals but at the end of the day I'm still a degenerate. I really am.

Speaker 2: 32:47

We're all falling. You know what I mean. I mean, you know everyone, you know. I think that it's hypocrisy. The people that don't claim to have any mental illness are probably ones you should probably look out for and watch out for. I mean, they're probably completely unaware.

Speaker 1: 32:59

You know what I mean of you know what I mean Of their own problems. So I'm always more scared. I'm scared of people that don't that, say they have no issues. You know I find it interesting that that with the Nancy Smith case, that you had that in it in the. It was in the tank, Like it was that you were. You knew that you wanted to solve that I did. Is there anything else that you want to do like in your next term?

Speaker 2: 33:25

I love cold cases. I mean, I've we had a case of it. Cold is usually infers that it's a significant amount of time, but there was a 2017 case of a kid named Nicholas Cooper, four month old infant, beaten to death by his babysitter, and it was a case that the prior administration had passed on. And I was just interested and I put Buddy Syverd on and who's like a pit bull, you know and he uncovered, you know, more evidence and we were able to successfully prosecute that case and get a conviction. That was a juvenile case. The individual was a juvenile at the time it was committed, but there was something extremely satisfying about providing justice to families that have been waiting that long to receive it. So that's one you've had. That's one we had. We've had a couple cold cases.

Speaker 2: 34:06

Do you have anyone in a tank right now that you really want to get to? Though? Right now I can't think of offhand ones that I can think of right now off rip, but I'm always open to it. So when someone comes to me with new evidence, I'm just always open to it. And we've got such great investigators my investigators I can't say enough about. I chose guys that were talented. They were cops, cops so that the rank and file respected them, and that was important to me.

Speaker 1: 34:32

You have a pretty good team around you. The whole team is pretty. I mean it's really the who's who of the law enforcement. I mean it's really astounding. Jimmy.

Speaker 2: 34:44

I got lucky that they want to work for me and they want to continue working for me. I mean, you know what Part of it, when you asked about how I got into politics, really what happened was, you know, doing defense work, you became extremely close with law enforcement, believe it or not.

Speaker 1: 34:56

Really.

Speaker 2: 34:57

Because I would see him in court all the time and I always knew the value. I was never one of those defense attorneys that was disrespectful to police or tried to embarrass them. Do you know what I mean? Now, if I had to do some kind of cross-examination, I was willing to do it, you know, if it was valid. But I wasn't the type that disrespected police and sometimes you get these true believer defense attorneys that kind of view police as the bad guy, and I don't view it that way. So I was able to really develop relationships.

Speaker 2: 35:21

Are you sure you're even a Democrat? I'm a pretty conservative one, I mean, you know, let me, let me. Let me break down my political philosophy in two words. Ok, maybe a couple more words. I don't know. I'm pro labor, ok, because my dad was a union man, my mom was involved in unions, my mom's a school bus driver, which was difficult because I had spies all over the place school bus drivers and then my dad was involved in excavating and he was involved in union work. So I was always very much for the working man and I thought Capitol had enough representatives and they were paying off legislators enough. They were taken care of. So I'm interested in working class people and I'm pro-labor and pro-law enforcement. I think you should have a livable wage. We have a nice, nice neighborhood and you should have plenty of police to patrol those streets to make sure you're safe. Okay, and, and, and, and, whatever that is is what I am.

Speaker 1: 36:12

Okay, if that makes sense, that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 36:14

Yeah, I like that, that's a good way to put it. I like that. There's that, you know, just everybody's individual. I mean they just are. I get it that there's a two-party system and you kind of got to get in, you got to get in bed with somebody to get it, to get to get it going, but it's just, it's sad, it is, it really is. But I mean, at the same time, if you had 20 people running and running for something and, and you know, as president or as prosecutor, yeah, you know, somebody only has to get like 15% of the vote to win.

Speaker 1: 36:47

I mean, that's not good either.

Speaker 2: 36:48

Yeah, it's a difficult situation. And what do you do with the money? I mean, do you allow just a certain amount of money that the government provides these individuals? Like you get 100,000 each. Good luck. There's a couple of criticisms I have with district attorneys in the state of Ohio. I'm not sure if these rules apply to every state, but I know they apply here. I can receive unlimited funds, which means there's no cap on what you could give me donate to my campaign, which is problematic, I think, for me Ethically. I think how can the chief law enforcement officer of the county receive unlimited funds? I mean, how is it that you can answer that?

Speaker 1: 37:25

for you, Because you guys voted it in.

Speaker 2: 37:27

I mean, when you're when you're involved in that vote.

Speaker 1: 37:30

No, you weren't you weren't the people that it affects? Who's going to vote against themselves? No, don't give me enough money. And they should 100% they should.

Speaker 2: 37:42

If you put that you cut me a check for a million dollars, jimmy, the idea that's going to bounce if I cut it, I promise, yeah, I'd still try to cash it. But but you know, it just seems problematic. It seems like it's it's an open invitation to kind of corruption, yeah, yeah, and I also think it should be nonpartisan. You know, I wish, you know, I wish it was a nonpartisan position where there was no party affiliation, because I think, someone that that enforces the law, there shouldn't be a party.

Speaker 1: 38:13

I agree, I agree, there should be no favoritism whatsoever, and it first of all when somebody like as a prosecutor, like for me and you, we're good friends, yeah, as soon as I stab somebody in the throat, you're distancing yourself from me Immediately. It don't matter what party you're in, yeah, and that's just kind of the way it works, I mean. But there are people that kind of like well, did he really? Because they're on the same party line.

Speaker 2: 38:39

You know what I mean, yeah, and I think it would alleviate that appearance of impropriety. Sure, but you know, what's funny is I find it interesting. You know, people think that when they give to politicians you just kind of alluded to that, but I think when they think they give a lot of money to a politician, it brings them closer to the politician. In fact I think it takes them further away, because you give me a bunch of money. I've got to stay away from a case that I think it's interesting, where people think they're getting in closer with politicians. I know some in the prosecutor's office.

Speaker 1: 39:11

I think maybe in the Senate, it's not. I don't think so.

Speaker 2: 39:14

Yeah, but I think that you know, I think in general, sometimes it doesn't produce the results that the donor believes it's going to produce.

Speaker 1: 39:22

Sure, Sure yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:23

And rightfully so.

Speaker 1: 39:24

Yeah, yeah, and that's I mean the big packs and everything. That's a hole. That's where I would sit on what I would call. I wouldn't even call it because Democrats don't stop that, but I would sit more with a Bernie Sanders. He's right, that's got to go away. It does. There's just too much money. There's no reason. And a perfect example is that what's the guy that had the stroke in Pennsylvania? What's his name?

Speaker 2: 39:50

Fetterman. Oh yeah, fetterman, fetterman, yeah, the senator.

Speaker 1: 39:53

Yeah, he was talking about running for senator. They're spending $300 million on a campaign for a $170,000-a-year job. It's unbelievable. But yet these guys leave office after a $170,000 job and they're multimillionaires.

Speaker 2: 40:08

Yeah, they become lobbyists. Yeah, you know what I mean. That makes no sense. And the idea and this goes, this is bipartisan argument is that the idea that that that Congress should be overheard, like playing the market all the time with insider information, oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:20

It's crazy to me too. Yeah, there's like somebody out there that says they that quite frankly, oh, 100 percent.

Speaker 2: 40:34

Yeah, I think, I think that's a that's a problem with both parties, but I it's so glaring to me. You know it's horrible.

Speaker 1: 40:40

And it's a slap in the face to Americans that are struggling or trying to get by and all that stuff they have no access to inside information that have no access to it.

Speaker 1: 40:49

And not only that, just that you're talking about inside. I think it might even be directing their decisions. It may very well be. I mean, that's the problem with it, and I think that's where it comes. You know where they're making a decision based on the fact that they know that they're going to make X amount on Apple that they run with. You know what I mean. If they allow something to X amount on Apple that they run with.

Speaker 2: 41:13

You know what I mean, if they allow something to go. I don't know any further. I think a lot of the term that I'd heard for that type of system is plutocracy. It's a plutocracy when money really runs everything. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely, and so that's something that I've always been interested in is the amount of influence of money and just the blatant influence of money. It's something that I've always been interested in is the amount of influence of money and just the blatant influence of money. It's not even hidden, I mean, it's right down in front of you. I mean, how can you trade on stocks when you know inside information, I mean, and how is that debatable?

Speaker 1: 41:41

Yeah, no, it shouldn't even be close to debatable. Do you have any aspirations to go for that farther like for state?

Speaker 2: 41:47

at least you know what are there like to it, like for state at least. Or you know what I love, um, I guess you know, theoretically I don't leave it out, but I love being a part of the community that I grew up in. I mean, my whole social network is here. My parents are here, my brother's here, my family's here. You know, having a direct influence on the community that you grew up with is something that you can't get when you go down to Columbus because you're so separated from them. Now, and I remember I met Mike DeWine, I got an invite for the county prosecutors to go down to the mansion. Of course, I took the opportunity and I went down there and I spoke with the governor and he said JD, stay as county prosecutor. He's like it's the best job I ever had. Do you know what I mean? He's had every conceivable office. And he told me, like privately, like you know, you should consider staying where you're at yeah, cause he don't want you to come after his.

Speaker 1: 42:38

I think he's turned.

Speaker 2: 42:40

I think at least he's turned out, though I was so upset.

Speaker 1: 42:43

I was so upset with uh him, with the pandemic, with what was her name.

Speaker 2: 42:52

Amy Acton. She has political aspirations too, doesn't she I?

Speaker 1: 42:56

hope not. I'll make sure I don't vote for her, that's for sure. I mean, I just was not happy. Actually, I've liked most of his policies, but I felt like that was handled wrong. I didn't like we needed somebody strong to be there with us, stand with us, like you know many other states had, and instead we had Amy acting, crying, on TV. I mean that's scary shit. It scared me.

Speaker 2: 43:18

Well, it doesn't. It doesn't.

Speaker 1: 43:20

It's like, oh, my leaders are crying.

Speaker 2: 43:22

You don't want to go into war when the general's crying.

Speaker 1: 43:24

Right.

Speaker 2: 43:25

But yeah, I mean that was such a confusing time, you know. I mean that's such a difficult time to even wrap my mind around now what occurred.

Speaker 1: 43:33

Well, I feel like, too, the problem with that whole thing is that I feel like those are positions that are very minute, yeah, in a normal setting, at a normal time, and that was their show. Yeah, you know what I mean, it was a show, and I feel like that was part of the problem. Like they're, almost like they're I hate to say it, but I think they're just showboating, like trying to like be bigger than they are. You know what?

Speaker 1: 44:00

I'm saying I feel like that's what it was. I could be wrong, but that's what I feel like it was.

Speaker 2: 44:05

I mean, you know, political theater is definitely out there.

Speaker 1: 44:09

Yeah, I mean, but she wasn't even a politician. She was elected, or she wasn't elected, she was appointed, I think she was appointed.

Speaker 2: 44:14

Yeah, I think I thought she was running for office recently, but I could be wrong you might be.

Speaker 1: 44:19

I thought, I thought I read that somewhere.

Speaker 2: 44:20

But yeah, I just remember being that time. I remember being in West Virginia. I had gone up into the mountains after they delayed the first election. Do you remember when they delayed it? I was. It was like at the peak and the climax of my election. I had a damn plane that had my name running over and it was delayed and it was like really devastating to me because I felt like I had momentum and so I left with the girl I was dating. We went up to the mountains in West Virginia and I remember being on that mountain and I remember I was watching that movie, um, um, with Dustin Hoffman about the virus. Remember the old, I don't know, it was about the blue outbreak, yeah, outbreak and I remember watching that as it's. I think everybody watched it around and I remember being on the top of this mountain and I was learning that everything around me was shutting down and it was kind of this apocalypse type scenario. It was really strange.

Speaker 1: 45:10

Yeah, for me it was. My thing was it was kind of this apocalypse type scenario. It was really strange. Yeah, for me it was. My thing was it was everything was starting and I was very careful, like I. I I shut down the salad bar because you know what was going on, and I started making sure that we clean the tables and chairs in between. I was, I was really putting in the effort. And then at that time I didn't have a Sunday liquor license. So on Sundays I'd come here do paperwork or whatever I did, and I'm sitting there, you know, doing paperwork, and all of a sudden he comes on and tells us that that's it, you close tonight, you're not opening tomorrow, and it's a couple days before that year, st Paddy's Day was going to be on a Tuesday and I'm sitting on you know 15, 15 pounder, you know corned beefs, like I'm.

Speaker 2: 45:51

Like what the heck, you've already put the cost in.

Speaker 1: 45:55

They definitely ain't going to take them back. Would you? You know what I mean? They're not going to take. No, that's bad business. They're not going to take it back. They're like no, I'm good, you know? Yeah, because I mean, if you know who Joe Bennett is, I don't.

Speaker 2: 46:12

He sells fish, bennett seafood oh yeah, over here near Kansas, no, no, no, that's a different spot. No, that's a different no.

Speaker 1: 46:19

He goes like it does, he delivers to all the different restaurants and stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 46:24

He's the one who puts on our clam bake and things like that. Really good at what he does. But he's on the phone. He goes, don't shut down. He goes because they told us we could be open for to-go's and being a bar, I thought, well, I ain't doing that, you know what I mean. And he goes, don't do it. He goes, trust me, just keep it open. And I did, and I'll tell you what the community came out. It was insane. I did more in sales and to goes than I would have been if I would have been open. Is that right?

Speaker 2: 46:51

That's amazing. That's amazing. I mean, that's not just that's. I mean I know you've got good food, I've heard that, but that's more of your impact on the community, man, when someone, when they come out it's like you know, when people come out and support a business, like they did, you, that's telling Jim.

Speaker 1: 47:09

Oh, and it was like Sam's club was real good about it. Church of the North coast give out, shout outs. But I mean they bought like Sam's club would feed their whole workers three times a day with your, sometimes not just me, they did it to all the small restaurants in the area. They would order to go food and they would get everybody to come out and and bring them, you know, for lunches I mean, and it would be $1,200, $1,300 worth of sandwiches or something that they were ordering.

Speaker 2: 47:32

Well, you know, I remember during that time period, I think, what was so confusing and it was kind of a you know and I give some leeway to leaders because it was one of those situations, especially early on it was very difficult to know what was true. Yeah, and you didn't know, and so you know. But I remember at some point you know and you didn't know, and so you know, but I remember at some point, you know, the rules seemed strange, like I had to wear my mask going into the restaurant.

Speaker 1: 47:57

But when I sat down.

Speaker 2: 47:58

I could take it off Right Like they started to become kind of where. It was. Like you start to go well.

Speaker 1: 48:03

I don't understand. You know, one of the problems I had is when we first opened and I had the patio, so I was one of the very first open. You know what I mean? Yeah, but everybody driving by became little Nazis, right. They would call the police and say, oh, he's got people over there, not six feet apart. And you know, I even had the health department come in and he walked in and he goes this can't happen. And it was the group that it was. Was on a standing at the corner of the bar. The tables and chairs were all six feet apart. But these guys are just. But like I told him at the time, I go, you guys shut us down so they couldn't come to the bar. You know what they did? This whole group was two streets down in somebody's backyard having bonfires and been with each other the whole time. Now they're coming up here. I'm finally getting their business, because you took it from me and now you want me to tell them that they can't stand next to each other.

Speaker 2: 48:56

Go back to standing next to each other down the street.

Speaker 1: 48:58

Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 2: 49:00

You started to get those. And then it's created this probably justifiable critique on well, what are we doing here? What's really going on? And I understand that. I understand that issue from both sides, to be honest with you. Oh, I do too.

Speaker 1: 49:13

At first I was nervous. I get it.

Speaker 1: 49:15

I understand that I do understand that, but I think that you should have been careful, more careful about it, and I think you should have not, you know, took funerals away and stopped people from seeing their elderly parents that were in nursing homes, and things to that nature. Some of that stuff was heartbreaking. Oh, it was. I mean, we had one of our regulars at the time died right before we opened back up. He died and none of us could go to the funeral. This guy came in here and was here open to close from 2017 when I opened until then. Wow, and we were not allowed to go to his funeral. We weren't allowed to see him when he was in the hospital.

Speaker 2: 49:48

And he becomes family here. Oh, he was family.

Speaker 1: 49:52

My son cried. I mean, when we, when we were shut down, he would come in because he lived up the street. He was like just laying around in his, in his, and now I got to admit that I'm breaking the law. But my wife went. My wife went and got him and said you're not sitting in this house, you come down here and you can help us at the bar. She said put a madhouse shirt on, you can go out with deliveries with me to keep me safe, things like that. So he'd come down and he would sit with her, help her deliver food or anything. And then when we didn't need him, he would sit and play darts with my son. So him and my son spent the whole shutdown just playing darts together. Wow, the whole shutdown just playing darts together. So it was heartbreaking for him. I mean that was his first loss in life. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 50:35

You know I'm lucky. I've had loss, but I haven't had someone that was so close to me yet my grandparents I really loved, but they lived in Tennessee, yeah, so that distance creates separation. You don't get to know them real well and maybe it heightened the the the around my grandfather, maybe they made him the bigger figure because he's this guy.

Speaker 2: 50:55

That's kind of like you hear about him but you don't really know him that well. But uh, yeah, loss is just really extraordinary and life's about dealing with loss really. I mean in the end. But yeah, so you grew up in Amherst. No, I actually got. I was born in Elyria and uh, and we lived briefly over um near La Grange off of Indian Hollow. Oh, okay, so I was born in Elyria. We lived the first couple of years of my life. My dad had this little little farm and he was a construction guy but he liked having little animals. We had sheep and goats and stuff and chickens. I think there's pictures of me walking around with like a fake gun in my diaper you know what I mean and my brother.

Speaker 2: 51:31

I'm lucky. I got a brother that's 16 months younger than me and he's real cool. His name's travis, but and uh, and so I was lucky to have that brother. That was real close, so we had a really great upbringing. But then we moved into illyria, uh, the city of illyria. Then I went to school at ely. Yeah, I went to school at illy from, like, uh, kindergarten, uh, to fifth grade. And then, once I got into fifth grade, my family moved out to Firelands School District. So I lived right near the border of Erie and Lorain County and so I went to Firelands High School and I graduated in 99. But I got lucky, I had a wonderful upbringing.

Speaker 2: 52:10

Sometimes I joke around about the fact that memories are usually created by traumatic events, and the fact that I didn't suffer much trauma in my life leads to me kind of not being able to remember very much of my childhood. I just knew I had a wonderful one. I was an athlete growing up. Obviously I wasn't a good enough athlete, jimmy, to be a pro, but I was lucky that I had a father that was very honest with me and said hey, listen, man, you're a good athlete, you're not a great athlete, you're not 6'5", and so he's like stick with the books. And so I was lucky to have that, even though I was very interested in sports. But you know, I was competitive Not only on the field, but I was real competitive in the classroom too, and so I was always trying to get the best grade and, you know, trying to really work hard. I think I was more of a hard worker than I was some high intellect.

Speaker 1: 53:05

That's kind of where we live right now Right off of Grafton Road. Oh, do you? Yeah, that's where me and my wife live, yeah.

Speaker 2: 53:10

My parents live on Banks. Oh, really yeah but I grew up off of you know where Sheffley's Garden is Over there in Birmingham. Yeah, I live like two and a half miles from there, oh okay.

Speaker 2: 53:20

Awesome, went to finals, loved it, and then I ended up going to school and they were offering me free tuition. So I went to Lorain Community and loved it. I really love it. I mean I advocate heavily for Lorain Community College because it's so affordable, especially for people that didn't get scholarships like I did. But I think I still had that attitude where I wanted to go out and experience college. So I then went.

Speaker 2: 53:46

My second year I went to Miami of Ohio, which is a pretty conservative school, beautiful campus, though it's like one of those campuses that you close your eyes. It's like the 1950s Letterman jacket with the do you know what I mean? Home of Roethlisberger. You got home of Roethlisberger. Home of who's the basketball player, zerbiak yeah, zerbiak, and I think I was there right when Roethlisberger was, anyways, but beautiful campus. But I was far from home and so my dad did some legwork for me and ended up looking at Oberlin College and doing all this footwork. And the interesting part was I was like Dad, you know, I'd like to come back to home and I respected Oberlin's academics, but it was like 50 grand a year. At that time I was like there's no way I'm paying 50 grand a year.

Speaker 1: 54:30

A lot more than that now.

Speaker 2: 54:30

Yeah, I think it's 60 or 70 now and so I remember as a guy. But they were needs blind at the time. So if your family income didn't kind of match up to the other kids that were pretty wealthy at the time, they would give you a lot of money. I went there for like five grand a year but it was interesting because I this kind of left ideology at Oberlin and I had the real right ideology at Miami, so I think it made me kind of a radical moderate. You know what I mean, because I was like I don't know if I can prescribe to it I can't get with the far left, I can't get with the far right. I've worked in the dorms there.

Speaker 1: 55:05

Oh, did you Like on multiple times.

Speaker 2: 55:07

Oh, she saw a lot of stuff.

Speaker 1: 55:09

But it's well, no, we do it in the summer.

Speaker 1: 55:11

Oh, okay, so what happens is it's weird because we'll start it right as they're leaving. Right, you know you'll start a remodel and all these weird Oberlin artsy kids are leaving, yeah. And then when you see them come in the next year, the first years, yeah, they all look so normal and like nice, but the next year when you start, it's just a bunch of weirdos again. You know what's interesting? It's crazy. You know what's interesting is Not weirdos I shouldn't say weirdos, they're just artsy or liberal or whatever you want to call it.

Speaker 2: 55:40

You know what it is. They're all really well-intentioned. What I learned about them is they usually come from wealthy families. They're almost embarrassed of their wealth. How almost embarrassed of their wealth. You know what I mean, because how do you have a real leftist ideology?

Speaker 1: 55:50

Wasn't Chelsea there? Chelsea Clinton, I don't know if Chelsea she wasn't there when I was there, or her boyfriend was there, or something.

Speaker 2: 55:55

Yeah, I think he may have been there. There were some celebrities' kids that were there, I think, when I was there.

Speaker 1: 56:06

Like I remember going to like graduation.

Speaker 2: 56:08

I saw like an interesting place, but the kids were all well-intentioned and it's almost like they had this kind of internal conflict at least that I could see, maybe, on how are you leftist but you're wealthy? Yeah, do you know what I mean? And I think that they struggled with that because I think they wanted fairness. I think that's what they really kind of want. But I was really impressed, though, when I went to Miami. It was like I wasn't as impressed with the student body as I was at Oberlin, because Oberlin kids went to the best high schools in the country. You know what?

Speaker 2: 56:36

I mean Absolutely these kids were going to private schools in Manhattan, you know what I mean, and I was the hick from down the street. You know what I mean. Right, right, right. And so I did really well in Miami and then kind of fell down a little bit when I was around kids that were just intellectually superior and they had better training, is that?

Speaker 1: 56:51

where you learned to play instruments and stuff, cause that's an artsy school.

Speaker 2: 56:54

You know what? No, I used to walk through the music school, which is phenomenal. Their music program is unbelievable.

Speaker 1: 57:00

We did a stage where they put a new organ in Did you and it was so cool, the guy that did it. We met him one day. He was only there to one day he came in. This guy worked. I want to say he got paid three and a half million dollars for this organ. He lived in California and that's the only thing he did for two and a half years was build this organ. Amazing, all handmade.

Speaker 2: 57:21

It was. Was it in the new jazz? Yeah, because that was a blue one. Yeah, wasn't about 10, 15 years ago? They built the jazz school. It was right by Lorenzo's there. You know where I'm talking about, that new school, because I think Stevie Wonder came for the opening.

Speaker 1: 57:39

We were behind Lorenzo's, so the one we did it would have been behind Lorenzo's but a little more towards the square Yep, but I'm trying to think how long it might have been. It wasn't 10 years ago, it was like six.

Speaker 2: 57:50

I think I was in.

Speaker 1: 57:51

I had just bought this when I was there. Gotcha, I had just got this bar, so it had been like seven years ago, right around there.

Speaker 2: 57:57

But I got to say, you know, I mean I know that you know Oblin's especially been controversial, you know, in the last five years. But like I really enjoyed my time there. I mean I enjoy my time everywhere, though because I can see different perspectives. I'm not always going to buy into everything anyone has to say, but it was nice to see both sides and, like I said, that's what made me so radically modern. That's kind of how I am.

Speaker 1: 58:19

My dad was like he was just like I said, bradley got him off on murder, right, right. So I mean, and he's just kind of like, that's him. I had him on the podcast one day and he's telling the story about when he broke out of prison or jail. Like literally, he broke out, he went AWOL. County Lorraine.

Speaker 2: 58:34

No, it was Elizabeth of West Virginia.

Speaker 1: 58:37

So he got caught. He went AWOL in the military. They caught him in Elizabeth and then he broke out of jail, Literally dug his way out of a mortar, a block, a cinder block that was in the shower. I A block, a cinder block that was in the shower. I guess he said the shower was like softening up the mortar and he used a metal spoon Dug himself out and then was just out kicking it for a couple weeks before they caught him, Like he's just wild.

Speaker 2: 58:58

Unbelievable. You know, the chances of somebody being able to do that is so low. Yeah, I just saw this one Netflix new thing with Benicio Del Toro and Paul Danos. He was in there Will Be Blood. You've ever seen that film? Uh-uh. Anyways, these two actors are really good, but they play a prison break and the amount of time and effort it takes to really do something like that is amazing. But that's all they have.

Speaker 1: 59:23

Well, my dad goes. I said you dug it out with a spoon, he goes, yeah, he goes, yeah. They gave me a metal spoon Can, and he goes, yeah.

Speaker 2: 59:32

He goes yeah, they gave me a metal spoon. Can you believe it? Like they're the crazy ones.

Speaker 1: 59:35

It's amazing, I got to meet your dad. I got to hear my dad's a trope.

Speaker 2: 59:40

But yeah, as far as the music, I would go and listen to music but music was always a big part of my life because when I was a young guy even though my dad is not like a music aficionado and I would joke around with him he doesn't listen to lyrics as much as I think he should. He kind of likes the groove. You know what I mean? Sure, I'm one of those guys where I'm so picky with music. It's got to be a good groove and good lyrics.

Speaker 1: 59:57

It's got to say something.

Speaker 2: 59:58

You know what I mean. I like pop stuff too, but I like to really. I want it to speak to me somehow, Sure, but. But he always listened to the outlaw country stuff. So all I ever grew up listening to was Willie and Waylon and Burl. That's kind of my dad, yeah, and George Jones and Johnny Cash, and my dad took me to see Johnny Cash when I was 10 over at Richland Coliseum.

Speaker 1: 1:00:22

Coliseum.

Speaker 2: 1:00:23

Yeah, and I remember it was like seeing my hero man. It was like he was bigger than life to me, so it was a really big deal when I was like like he was bigger than life to me and so it was really big deal. And I, when I was younger, I liked to sing and my dad used to always say, hey, do a Merle Haggard, you know, and I would try to like mimic their voice, and so he was kind of always encouraging that and it was always something I liked to do. But it wasn't real cool to be a singer man. I mean, I was more of an athlete, did jock, you know what I mean. But I had this little interest in music and I remember in fifth grade You're good though. Oh, thank you bro, you're real good.

Speaker 2: 1:00:53

Well, I'm not a complete, I'm a complete hack when it comes to guitar. I can bang through a song, but I'm not a great guitar player. I more play the guitar to sing, if that makes sense. I just want to get through a song. Probably seems like I'm pretty good. Right, right, right. But when you're like me and you're a hack guitar player and you know how much work it takes to be really a master at it. You realize how much of a hack you are. Sure, sure, but I really like to sing, and so I would pick up the guitar when I was like 18. I bought my first one, which I still have it, um, and I was, you know. You know, when you you're with your buddies and one of them's learning to try to go, hey, I'm gonna show you the intro to this song. It's the only thing they know you know right, right, right and I'd be like well, wait, let me start over.

Speaker 2: 1:01:36

You know, so I was doing that for many years and maybe singing karaoke with my buddies, you know, if we were out, you know having a good time. Train station, train station. You know where I used to go I used to sing karaoke was at the boot Remember the boot.

Speaker 2: 1:01:48

They had the upstairs with the karaoke. So I used to do that and I really loved doing it. And then, when I got into my 30s, I started going. You know, I want to try to finish songs, I want to sing songs, and so that's what I started doing, and there's nothing better to me than seeing a really good live band. And music to me is like this you know, know, when you see babies bounce up and down to rhythm, it's in us yeah, I'm not.

Speaker 1: 1:02:11

I'm not, it's not my thing, like I've just never been in the music my dad was into. It was he? My dad was always, and it was never my thing. I'm more of like your dad.

Speaker 1: 1:02:19

I like I like a good riff and that's about it, you know, I mean, I'm not caring what they're saying to you but I found out, oddly enough, that typically when I like a good beat and something, I end up listening to the words later and feel like they've always spoken to me about the time I was in, like it was the reason I picked that song was maybe the time of life I was in. That's really interesting, but I never realized that or put it together. I just like the beat Until later.

Speaker 2: 1:02:46

Yeah, you know it's funny. I got into this band named Billy Strings. He's this kind of like this new age bluegrass. I've always been fascinated with bluegrass, even though I like every genre of music, and there's good music in every genre. There's great reggae, there's great country, there's great gospel, there's great everything Blues all of it. And now there's garbage in every genre as well. You know what I mean. But I got into this band named Billy Strings. I saw him live for the first time. I listened to their music. He's a Grammy winner.

Speaker 2: 1:03:14

He's a young guy. He's got an interesting story. His dad died of an overdose of heroin when he was three. His stepdad kind of brought him on and taught him bluegrass music and they call him Billy Strings because he could play anything with strings. When he was a young guy he was like a phenom and then he got into a meth habit when he was like 13. Jeez, and you could find videos online where he's playing in flop houses and stuff. You know what I mean? Wow, because he was, you know, around that world. He grew up in Michigan and he's got this fascinating story that he got clean and now he's perhaps probably the greatest bluegrass player of our generation and bluegrass player of our, of our generation, and I saw him live for the first time and I don't know if you've ever been to a live show. Where you see somebody, you go.

Speaker 1: 1:03:52

I'm gonna be a fan from him forever you know when you see, when I see a band live.

Speaker 2: 1:03:56

That's really good. They can change you, you know, and I and I hate to say, but I've almost become a groupie for this guy. Man, that's pretty cool. I, I go, and I'm in february, I flew down to north carolina by myself to watch, uh, three nights of his music and I stayed in this cabin up in the woods and I just came down to Asheville, north Carolina, if you're familiar, and I went and watched three nights in a row, just by myself. Man, that's pretty cool, I got so into it.

Speaker 1: 1:04:20

That's awesome. My mom likes that. My mom goes to these concert events where they're like maybe 20 different people are running over three days.

Speaker 2: 1:04:28

Like festivals and stuff. Yeah, it's something to it be 20 different people are running over three days like a festival and stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:04:33

Yeah, she loves that, still to this day. But I don't like camping, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:04:34

I mean, I'm not camping, obviously, see, I'll go to those and I'll find the nearest hotel room.

Speaker 1: 1:04:37

Man that's you know. Yeah, that's what I tell her she should do too, but no, she likes to camp hey, she's the real deal, though, but she, I'm a poser, pot and stuff, like she's a real hippie.

Speaker 1: 1:04:44

Hey, I'm a poser compared to her. My mom, my mom, that's what I was. I that's what I was. I guess that's what I was getting ready to lead to with my dad's story. There was my dad who was that wild, crazy Reagan supporter which I never understood. Back then I always thought it was weird that he was about Reagan, but now it makes sense. I get it now that he was Reagan. But then my mom on the other spectrum. My mom was with a black woman my whole life and then now she's married to a white farm girl.

Speaker 2: 1:05:11

She's a lesbian. I think we've talked. I think you and I may have talked about that. That's interesting.

Speaker 1: 1:05:15

So I've seen both sides, left and right, 100%. I mean, that's just. I've seen it all and I've always been, in my heart, just conservative. Like my mom has tried to beat it out of me, she just can't. You Mom has tried to beat it out of me, she just can't. You know what I mean. I just always am who I am. It's just who I always was. I guess, like my dad, that's who he always was. But that doesn't mean that I don't—I'm not one of these people that are going to go down the ticket and—Republican Republican I'm not. That's crazy to me. That's absolutely insane to do something like that, especially at local, you know, I don't know Like what? What is this? Silla or whatever? Was that his name? How's?

Speaker 2: 1:05:50

he was a Silla. Yeah, he worked for me, he was an assistant prosecutor for me and then the Nancy Smith thing caused some rifts in the office and he eventually left and he was he's. He's been a Democrat for I think Don't quote me, but I think for the last decade or so or at least, he's voted maybe five Democratic primaries and then in 2023, he switched to Republican and he's running on the Republican ticket just to run against you. I mean, I'm assuming. I don't I can't crawl into his head, but I'm assuming. That was the reason.

Speaker 1: 1:06:19

I really don't feel like his. I'm annoyed with his sign.

Speaker 2: 1:06:23

What annoys you about it?

Speaker 1: 1:06:25

Because it doesn't. I don't even know who it's for when it comes up. It doesn't tell you anything about this guy. It literally says vote JD out. And it's like what in the hell, that's your campaign.

Speaker 2: 1:06:37

Well, you know, I think one of the important parts and I've had to learn this, you know, when it comes to politics is you really have to kind of set out what you're going to do. I would imagine, yeah, and I think that one of the problems with doing that is so much is relied upon in elections with name recognition. You don't necessarily want to give your opponent a bunch of name recognition, you know what I mean and so just kind of focusing on your opponent and putting his name out there, even if they're negative ads trying to attack you. Well, if that's the case, Trump's going to win.

Speaker 2: 1:07:09

I was just going to say I mean yeah, he's got the most negative of all time. His name is mentioned at everything. You know it's just. You know, I like to think I see switching as disingenuous. As far as you know my opponent, I don't want to go too negative because I don't like going that route. I really enjoy kind of talking about what I've done, but the truth of the matter is, you know, I've never, you know, been deceptive on on who I am, you know, and and have I become a more conservative Democrat? I think there's no doubt about it. And uh, but I I could never, um, just switch parties just to run against someone Cause I couldn't beat him in the primary.

Speaker 1: 1:07:44

I'm okay with that. Only because my thing is is like when I look back through my life and I'm 50, 51, right, right, and I mean I've been there for, you know, bush, right, I've been there for Clinton, I've been there for other Bush, you know what I mean and with the, the Clinton, like that Democrat that was to me that's the same as Trump is right now. Oh, you find them to be very similar as far as policy. Yeah, I same as Trump is right now. Oh, you find them to be very similar as far as policy.

Speaker 2: 1:08:11

Yeah, I don't see the difference honestly. I mean, I honestly don't the triangulation that Clinton was always kind of supportive of, I think.

Speaker 1: 1:08:16

Trump changed the Republican Party? Oh, 100%. I think that he turned them into what he wanted, and he was always a Democrat anyways. Back when Democrats were different though or at least he supported a lot with money, I mean, JFK would not fall in line with the Democrats today.

Speaker 2: 1:08:31

No, that's true, His policy would not. Yeah, that's true, and I think that— They've gone left of him.

Speaker 1: 1:08:35

If somebody jumps ship, I'm okay with that.

Speaker 2: 1:08:37

That doesn't bother me If it's genuine. Yeah, I mean don't get me wrong, Jimmy I think what I meant was—I know what I meant.

Speaker 1: 1:08:42

What I meant was it has to be sincere, Sure to get on a ticket because you've got to be on another ticket, I don't know, but boy, it seems suspicious. Well, when your campaign is, vote JD out.

Speaker 2: 1:08:52

That's your only campaign, vote JD out, and you know what I mean. You know, I'm just really proud of what we've accomplished, Jim. I mean, you know what is the biggest?

Speaker 1: 1:09:00

thing you've accomplished so far, man.

Speaker 2: 1:09:02

the crime's going down 30% mean I'm surrounded by people I'm really proud to call law enforcement officials. I mean the police around here I'm just super impressed with, and so it really has a lot to do with them. For example, in Lorraine they're becoming very data-driven, so you know, hey, where are the most shots fired? Well, let's put our resources there. Do you know what I mean? Makes sense, but you need to gather that data and compile it, and they've done a really good job.

Speaker 1: 1:09:39

And they've done such a good job that I mean murder's down 50%. And when you talk about it like that now all of a sudden it's not really profiling. Which was the big issue at one time was they don't want you profiling violation, you are subject to being pulled over.

Speaker 2: 1:09:56

Sure, absolutely. So you know, and that's a way for them, you know, and naturally you know that's how they get into the car. A lot of times they'll say well, can I search, you know?

Speaker 1: 1:10:04

So what if a guy is in a cement truck and he's going 50 miles an hour through a neighborhood that's 35? Right, and no cop hit him with a radar gun? Can we still somehow get him in trouble?

Speaker 2: 1:10:19

You and I.

Speaker 1: 1:10:20

We can call and snitch on him. What happens if I call and snitch on him?

Speaker 2: 1:10:26

They would probably look out for him. Next time, jimmy, you could probably do it anonymously.

Speaker 1: 1:10:30

I want him to know who did it.

Speaker 2: 1:10:31

This seems like it's a little close to home here, brother, they can pace you too. No, guido, he drives a cement truck.

Speaker 1: 1:10:37

This is who. But you know they can pace you too.

Speaker 2: 1:10:38

No, Guido, oh, Guido right, he drives a cement truck. Oh, this is who you're referring to.

Speaker 1: 1:10:42

And this weekend we talked about it A guy screamed at him for saying he was flying down the road. Now I know, Guido. Guido was not flying down the road.

Speaker 2: 1:10:49

He drives like an 80-year-old grandma. Just too fast for this guy.

Speaker 1: 1:10:52

There's no chance that he was speeding down down the road. Yeah, but when we were talking about it he said it's not even up to him. He goes, give me a ticket or shut up. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 1:11:01

That's what he said. Yeah, you don't have the force to be able to do it. I said fuck you.

Speaker 1: 1:11:04

You come down my street Speedy.

Speaker 2: 1:11:06

I'm going to give you a ticket. I'm going to at least tell you.

Speaker 1: 1:11:13

You're an asshole.

Speaker 2: 1:11:14

Yeah, yeah, they can pace you, they can laser you. There's a couple different ways they can get you for speed. I'm just being a smartass to him, that's all. That was yeah, but tell him to slow down. Yeah, slow down, gito. Yeah, slow down man, jesus.

Speaker 1: 1:11:25

So we got on to that. What else did I want? We got on to that. This human trafficking. It was 54 counts of human trafficking.

Speaker 2: 1:11:45

Is that one?

Speaker 1: 1:11:45

Huge. I mean, human trafficking is a really interesting subject because it's not something that you know. It's not always just following a young girl at Target and putting her in your car and kidnapping her, taking to another state. Now that does happen. You've never met a girl like you know somewhere and like followed her home for a couple. I've never done that.

Speaker 2: 1:11:51

No, I've never done it. No, no, no, yeah, I am weird. Yeah, maybe I'm not, I'm more antisocial than I thought I was, but really they can be much more, much different. For example, we had a husband that was pimping his wife out violently, and so it's not just the human trafficking where you think of in your mind, of kidnapping and taking to other areas.

Speaker 1: 1:12:13

Well, that's the problem.

Speaker 1: 1:12:14

We hear human trafficking and we don't know what it is Right and it's like okay, I'll give you an example. Like like um, I you know you hear about, like molestation of kids or whatever right to me. When I hear about, I almost think instinctively that it's like they're touching them, right. That's what I think right. It's not the case there's actual children are being raped, when in these cases but to somebody who never would even dream of such a thing, they don't think of it it's hard to imagine. You say human trafficking. I think that they're stealing people and making them have sex in a basement dungeon type situation and that's the only thing I think of.

Speaker 2: 1:12:54

Yeah, and it does happen. I mean no doubt about it. But some of it can be much more gray than that. You know you get it Like I said. You get a husband that's forcing his wife to turn tricks, and so we ran into that stuff too. We had like seven, seven emissions that we did. We arrested maybe 35 or 40 people, but the Stephen Gilbert case was the first and largest human trafficking case in Lorain County history. Even Gilbert case was the first and largest human trafficking case in Lorain County history. It was in. Those cases are inherently difficult because the abuse that the women suffer, where you start to almost identify with your abuser Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2: 1:13:28

Like it's almost like a Stockholm syndrome, and so they have this weird kind of dynamic where they love and hate them. Do you know what I mean? And so it's very difficult to have these severely abused victims that they'll come with you and they want to prosecute and then they'll go away for a while Do you know what I mean? And then they'll come back and they'll go away. So it's very difficult. You try to get them involved in any kind of programming that you can, but it's very difficult for them.

Speaker 2: 1:13:57

But the Stephen Gilbert case I mean he had seven or eight girls that he was exploiting and one of them was so severe, one of the young ladies who I met. She had developed an infection of her arm from intravenous injection of heroin and it was becoming gangrenous Do you know what I mean? And it was starting to smell. And the Johns were actually complaining about the smell of her arm. Uh, to the defendant and uh, he just let it go and she eventually lost her arm. Wow, yeah, I think she lost it from maybe here I can't remember if it was I think it was below the elbow. But I mean, because he, he was so insistent on her just making the money, he didn't even take the time to take her to the hospital and she lost her arm.

Speaker 1: 1:14:41

Wow, and so these women aren't doing it voluntarily, weren't?

Speaker 2: 1:14:45

You know, I think at first it's kind of you know, no, I mean. No. I mean at first I think it's trying to get a fix. You know, this is your dope guy and you want to get your dope from him. And then eventually you're dependent upon it and then he'll say, well, if you want some dope, you want to do this. And it starts to kind of snowball from there and I think they get involved in a world where it's very scary the prospect of leaving him.

Speaker 1: 1:15:07

Do you think we should legalize prostitution? Oh geez.

Speaker 2: 1:15:13

I'm glad I didn't come for any controversial issues. You know what?

Speaker 1: 1:15:18

Well, no, the thing is is the reason I ask is because situations like that, well, I mean now, you could at least protect them and help them, you know?

Speaker 2: 1:15:24

what and if they want to argue it's their body.

Speaker 1: 1:15:27

They're right. There's nothing more. That would be their body and their right. You know that's a very interesting.

Speaker 2: 1:15:31

You know it's a very interesting topic. You know I what they call the oldest profession in the world. The problem is it's so subject to abuse. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1: 1:15:41

That's one of the problems with it. I feel like it's more subject to abuse if it has to be in the dark way alleys. It's kind of like when they argued for abortion. I don't know if you remember you probably don't, you're too young but there was a movie that was out about abortion. It had Sally Fields was in it, interesting and it was about getting abortions back before Roe v Wade Right, and how you'd have to get a doctor to come do it in your kitchen. Yeah, dangerous, it was dangerous and people were getting hurt and sick. So it's kind of the same similar situation. The more you put it out there where they can't, because isn't it better in Vegas where they have legal brothels and stuff Like isn't that better?

Speaker 2: 1:16:22

You know, the funny thing about Vegas is it's actually not legal in Vegas.

Speaker 1: 1:16:27

No, there's counties north. Yeah, I think it's county.

Speaker 2: 1:16:29

I can't remember the county. I remember going through it two summers ago.

Speaker 2: 1:16:33

Didn't stop at all did you my parents, luckily, were with me, man, but I remember going through and you would literally see they looked like those old drive-by hotels, you know they're like on the side of the road. It looked like that because I was fascinated with that whole market and I do understand your argument and you know, and who am I to tell two consenting adults what to do? Sure, that's how I feel, but it's yeah, it's a very, it's a very. You know, it's an interesting subject.

Speaker 1: 1:16:57

I feel like it could help with a lot of things. It might even help with rapists and stuff that's an interesting topic.

Speaker 2: 1:17:04

I don't know.

Speaker 1: 1:17:06

I'm not asking you to answer that question.

Speaker 2: 1:17:10

I know that's a rough one for the day before you know, jim, but here's the thing. My natural instinct would be to see the problems in it. However, I'm always open. People show me data, not just about this issue in particular, but just data in general. I'm driven by data. If you show me data that shows it's safer to do this than that, then I'm interested. You know what I mean, but anecdotal stuff doesn't really get me going too much. But yeah, I'd always be interested on both sides of some issue and then find out what I believe.

Speaker 1: 1:17:41

I mean, I think it's dirty and nasty at its core and I get that. I understand why it's illegal. I just think maybe it shouldn't be. That's all I'm saying. Maybe it shouldn't be. I'm just saying I hear you, brother. I mean I don't know for sure. But it just seems like there's an argument for it.

Speaker 2: 1:17:56

Hey, listen, and people can create arguments for everything. I know that much.

Speaker 1: 1:18:00

So this guy had seven or eight women, and only one was his woman.

Speaker 2: 1:18:04

Yeah, well, they oftentimes have one that they kind of manage the other girls and tries to kind of recruit other girls.

Speaker 2: 1:18:10

She's like the housewife or housemom or whatever they call it yeah or you know, I know the slang terms that they use for them, but I'm not going to mention them. But yeah, I mean there's, but they usually have one that kind of manages it. And uh, and it was just really dramatic. And you saw, but you saw how strong these women they got up in, in, in, in front of their, their abuser, and told their their story. And it was fascinating, uh, the amount of courage it takes to to do that.

Speaker 2: 1:18:33

And uh, and listen, we, you know, the funny, the interesting part is, as the case was coming closer to trial, our witnesses were kind of at that point where they were a little further from us, Sure, and so I was worried that we wouldn't be able to succeed at trial because I didn't have the witnesses that I needed. So there was a part of me that wanted to offer a plea so I could get him for sure, and I think at the time I might have offered 20. I can't remember exactly, but I offered 20 or had some kind of hesitant offer of 20, because I wanted to kind of make sure I got at least he was done.

Speaker 1: 1:19:04

At least he was done. Off the street. Yeah, going to hurt nobody. I get that.

Speaker 2: 1:19:08

But thankfully, he turned it down the offer. And then we then, luckily, at the exact right time, the witnesses start coming back towards us and we had a trial and he was convicted and he received 174 and a half years. And you know when that, when that, when that hits the front paper. I mean, you know, listen, these guys follow what's going on here. Do you know what I mean? And I think that sends a message that, like we're not going to tolerate it here and we'll try the case you know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 1:19:34

I think that there's something about trying cases and know dealing with trials is interesting because it's risky on both sides. It's risky for the defendants, risky for prosecutors as well. But I want defendants to know that we're very willing to try cases. Yeah, and so that changed everything I think for human trafficking in Lorain County.

Speaker 1: 1:19:52

How do you feel like you do better than the previous administration?

Speaker 2: 1:19:57

I think we're just much more open to police and law enforcement about receiving their input and listen. I think, coming from the private sector, you have to be aggressive, you know what I mean. And you have to be kind of a go-getter, because nobody signs my paychecks. Sure, yeah, you know what I mean. And so I think doing defense work, where you have to kind of kill your own meat, it creates a drive and a competitiveness in you and I think you then transfer that over to okay, now I'm going to be competitive prosecuting cases.

Speaker 1: 1:20:21

All right, I'm going to get you mad, then yeah, go ahead. Yeah, courtney Price, courtney Price.

Speaker 2: 1:20:30

The raid on Parmalee. Oh geez, see some of these cases here. Let me first premise this when you get into being the elected official, you no longer really handle cases, so I'm more of a managerial role now. Sure, so I. So individual cases will be difficult for me to comment on unless I do a little bit of research beforehand. I got you, I got you, but, but but yeah. So it's very difficult because I went from the courtroom now to I'm never in the courtroom, sure, right, right, right and. And so it's hard because people come up to me like maybe even defendants or something, say hey, jd, what about that case? I'm like hey, man, I really don't handle individual cases. Now. I obviously give input, and there's cases where my assistants will come to me and say, hey, jd, there's an offer on the table.

Speaker 1: 1:21:14

That was a big case there was the one where they raided the home, thinking they were looking for somebody else.

Speaker 2: 1:21:20

Oh yes, with the baby. Yes, I do recall that case, but I don't know a ton about it.

Speaker 1: 1:21:26

My question is was it necessary? They were after a teenager and I don't know anything about the case or anything of that. I don't know what the teenager did, I'm not sure, but it was a teenage boy they were after. There's like 18 cops out there Like, wasn't it a little bit?

Speaker 2: 1:21:42

much. You know. I think their philosophy typically is hey, we'd rather go in with overwhelming force than underwhelming force I mean, isn't five on a teenage boy an overwhelming force, maybe?

Speaker 2: 1:21:53

Maybe, but I wish I could comment a little more. I do recall it, but I don't recall it well enough. I wish I could comment a little more. I do recall it, but I don't recall it well enough. And I know it seems like I'm obfuscating, but the truth of the matter is I'd have to really review the file to give you a really determinative answer on what I thought. But I do think that that's the general philosophy.

Speaker 1: 1:22:08

How did they get the okay to go in and ram the door down?

Speaker 2: 1:22:12

That's usually given by whoever's the officer in charge on the scene the officer, yeah in charge on the scene. There's always someone that's high-ranking on the scene that makes the calls. The officer in charge is usually one.

Speaker 1: 1:22:26

What about Dixie? What about that one?

Speaker 2: 1:22:29

Dixie, you don't want to get into any controversial subjects.

Speaker 1: 1:22:31

It's funny.

Speaker 2: 1:22:36

I handled cases as defense counsel where I was representing gentlemen. They were typically cases that were appointed by the court. I don't think I had any private clients that came to me and hired me to defend them on allegedly killing an animal or torturing an animal. And the funny part is I remember the judges in Elyria. They would give me these cases and I think that when I was running for election last time I go, are you guys trying to, like you know, submarine me here, because those are the most least popular cases to handle as defense counsel. You can imagine. And it's interesting because you know I've represented heinous crimes and you won't get people, you know, protesting out for the death of a small child. No, but a dog they will. But a dog they will, and I understand it. You know they see them as innocent animals and I don't own a dog, a child I see as innocent.

Speaker 1: 1:23:28

Yeah, me too, brother, me too.

Speaker 2: 1:23:29

Me too. But yeah, those are very difficult positions because you know it was difficult for the officer. I think his hand had just been torn apart, like a few months beforehand, by a dog. So here's a guy that's already been kind of destroyed his hand by a dog.

Speaker 1: 1:23:44

He's in Sheffield now, right?

Speaker 2: 1:23:45

I don't know, I don't know exactly where he's at here anymore, but it's a very difficult position for for an officer to be in. You come up and and there's five dogs running around a neighborhood that shouldn't have dogs off their leashes. And then you just had the experience, the bad experience, that happened to you a couple months ago. I didn't know that.

Speaker 1: 1:24:02

I'm glad that you brought that up. I didn't know that about that. That, I guess, makes him a little jumpier. Yeah, I mean, and those are just very tough calls. Well, you just were saying about the great cops around you and I just had a couple things that spoke, because there was I remember that there was the was it the Marshals or whatever? They got a lot of shit too, but that guy had stabbed the one in the neck or something. Right, he stabbed them in the neck.

Speaker 2: 1:24:28

I'm glad you brought this up.

Speaker 1: 1:24:34

I mean, you know, here's what we do with police officers in general.

Speaker 2: 1:24:34

Derek Smith, that's what the thing was yeah, here's the thing we do with, and we just finished that evaluation just recently. We've had probably eight or nine fatalities from police-involved shootings in my tenure Wow, in only four years, yeah, I think it might have even been ten, wow, and I can tell you that every one of them was a good shoot. Now, you know, that may not always be the case. Those are the kind of cases that can really sink a district attorney, like the one in Cleveland with the Tamir Rice. Yeah, I mean that ends, you know, careers for for district attorneys If, if, a big enough segment doesn't agree with your decision.

Speaker 1: 1:25:10

Well, I mean with the Tamir Rice. This is my, said it over and over, yeah, and I'll give you my opinion, just so you know what it is. Not that you give a shit, because I know I do, jim, you know I care. My thing is I felt like the driver put the passenger in that, that what he put him in a awkward situation so close. Yes, yeah, because the guy that called 9-1-1 said I think this might be a toy gun. Of course, the, the the dispatch did not get that over to the dispatch, didn't take that over to the cruiser, the cruiser, because they don't want them to feel safe for no reason. Just in case it's not, because, yeah, it's a might be, we're not a professional, we don't know for sure. It didn't have the orange tip yeah, right right.

Speaker 1: 1:25:53

So I mean, it was, it was a, it was. I understand the reason, but why didn't the officers, why did they roll up on him and that driver puts him there, he jumps out of the car. Now it's almost too. You're too close and too like you can't make a mistake right now. So that's kind of how I felt about it, more than the guy that actually shot. I thought the driver put him in a bad spot. But what do you do?

Speaker 2: 1:26:16

You know, I had read, I knew some Cleveland police officers and the way they stated to me was that the ground had snow covered and that it may have slid a little longer than he thought to, that he didn't intend to get that close. The cop, yeah that. I think that may have been an accident because the conditions of the, of the, of the grass, I think I don't think he was intending to do that, at least that's what I remember.

Speaker 1: 1:26:37

Well, I feel like he should have just stayed on the street for a minute and just kind of observed him. There was nobody around him. I mean, I seen the video.

Speaker 2: 1:26:46

There was nobody around him. I think that there was plenty of police officers that felt like that was too close. Now, the difficult thing for me, with police officers especially, is we give them this huge responsibility and they have to make a decision in a nanosecond, you know, and we, as as as Sunday morning, we could Sunday morning yeah. Yeah, Right, and then you know.

Speaker 1: 1:27:07

But when I make a determination on whether the shoot's good or not, I've got all the time in the world to think about that decision, you know. But you're not allowed to question their means of operations, are you?

Speaker 2: 1:27:20

Well, there's always a reasonableness standard in everything. Do you know what I mean? There's a certain case law that puts out these certain criteria. There's certain tests like what's the individual charged with or that's running from you? Is there a reasonable belief that you're going to be harmed or killed? So there's these tests that you go through. That's developed with case law. So we take a case and we use the test and we go, okay, did it pass or not?

Speaker 1: 1:27:44

Well, what I'm saying is that officer that drove in there, the driver driving in there, that's his means of operations as he comes in. You can't question that.

Speaker 2: 1:27:53

I mean we could always question in the end if it was reasonable or not, I mean on whether the shoot was good or not. I mean you know you are allowed to question.

Speaker 1: 1:27:59

Yeah, I mean we weren't. I thought that's one of those. Like you're not there, you can't make that decision.

Speaker 2: 1:28:04

Well, unfortunately, if that's the case, then I've been handling cases I shouldn't be handling for a long time now, Jimmy. But the truth of the matter is you're not there you know what I mean and you don't have the pressure of a young guy turning at you with a gun and you're not sure if it's real or not. How do you expect the officer to guess? Well, you don't have time to guess, you don't. And so I've really gained even more respect for police officers after looking at these use of force cases, because the amount of like, even the case with the stabbing. I know those officers and they tried every method to try to get this guy to come out. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1: 1:28:46

He stabbed the one three times and he led the charge in.

Speaker 2: 1:28:50

Yeah, I mean, I got to meet with these guys and you know the truth of the matter is too often what we do with police officers that are involved in good shoots, where they're either save themselves or they save their partner or some other member of society, is we say, hey, congratulations, you're not going to get indicted. Do you know what I mean when? The reality of is, maybe we should give a little recognition for these guys what they have to put their lives on the line for.

Speaker 1: 1:29:12

Well, the problem is it's just like when you do like, it's like if I do like, if, if I do good, yeah, if I do good with my wife, me and her get along great, we have 20 great years, right. As soon as things go south, everybody's going to know about it. That's, that's all you hear about. You don't hear about the 20 good years yeah, and that's just the way it. I mean that's. I don't know how you fix that. I don't think that's fixable. I really don't.

Speaker 2: 1:29:39

I think society. I just wish they would kind of be a little bit more understanding to law enforcement and I get why they're not because they're not around them all the time and they don't see these scenarios. And when you get a really bad shoot, for example, or a case that seems bad, a mistake that law enforcement made, it's pumped 24 hours a day, seven days a week on the TV and it leads the average person to believe that that is widespread. Sure, when you have millions of interactions every day where there's nothing that occurs.

Speaker 1: 1:30:05

I don't think the Tamir Rice thing I can't blame per se. I think that that guy's history shows that he was a little overzealous for sure. But I think that the driver put him in a bad spot and I don't really blame him. Now the officers that went after the car like the car, the speed chase or whatever that was it backfired. They thought it was a gunshot.

Speaker 2: 1:30:27

In front of the Justice Center. I remember that down. I think there was a hundred something, I don't remember how many cruisers 90, I think I mean. Imagine I mean just those mistakes that are made and a hundred and something rounds or whatever in the car. And then what happens? It's a kind of a I blame them. It's a cumulative effect where people start shooting and then they all think there's a.

Speaker 1: 1:30:48

It's a bad situation, it's a horrible situation and somebody told me that they thought that and I heard this through the grapevine that every time they got shot the body was moving.

Speaker 2: 1:30:59

Oh yeah, from the shot. Oh my gosh. And they think they're still a threat.

Speaker 1: 1:31:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I heard. It's scary. I don't know if that's true or not.

Speaker 2: 1:31:06

It's a scary thing, but you know, one of the things I'm real proud of that we've done in the office is as defense counsel. I got close with these police officers. I I've been out there baby showers. What I can tell you is they try to get it right every time. They really do. What I remember experiencing is I remember there was a police officer in Elyria. He was involved in a fatality where there was a shooting. I don't know if you recall, but it was over by Wilkes Villa. There was a gas station there and there was a shooting that occurred. I don't know if you remember it, I am 100%.

Speaker 1: 1:31:35

It. It was my friend's gas station, yeah, and it was a very.

Speaker 2: 1:31:38

it seemed very clear from the from the outset that it was a good shoot. I mean, I think the evidence was that the guy turned around the gun. The gun was even found right outside the car. I mean, it was pretty clear that he intended to fire at them and, and and what appeared to be a really good shoot. It took a year and a half.

Speaker 1: 1:31:56

You know that should have been handled.

Speaker 2: 1:31:57

That could have been handled way faster.

Speaker 1: 1:32:00

The gas station had footage and stuff. The thing I didn't like about that shooting, I'll tell you. My buddy and his workers were standing there when them gunshots went off. Nobody cleared them out. All this was going on. For a while Were they in the store. They were in the store. They were in the store. The way it happened is they parked right in front of the glass, right? Okay, I recall, yeah, and, and that's where the register is.

Speaker 2: 1:32:26

And they're so. The car was facing the register, the defendant's car, the victim's car, the driver's door was facing the register.

Speaker 1: 1:32:33

Yeah, yeah, as the way it was, like it was parked sideways, like it was pulling up to get out, I got you not perpendicular.

Speaker 2: 1:32:40

It was parallel to the correct building correct.

Speaker 1: 1:32:43

There you go, so and they're rustling in the car that it's, there's a driver and there's, and one of them survived, yeah, through all that shooting.

Speaker 2: 1:32:50

Yeah, I thought it was a driver to survive.

Speaker 1: 1:32:52

But I could be wrong, I don't remember. I just know one of them, but they were wrestling around in the car for whatever was going on. I think think one was trying to give up, the other one wasn't. I think I believe what was going on, but I don't know what was going on. And Jim and them are all standing right there in the gas station. There's all these officers there's yelling at them, screaming at them. Nobody tells them get out of the way, nothing, and they open fire. I mean they went through. He's got bullet holes in his wall. They took out two or three panes of glass. It was like they should have told them get the hell out of there.

Speaker 2: 1:33:24

Did they see him? Did they notice him? I would assume, they didn't. I got to assume they didn't.

Speaker 1: 1:33:30

I got to assume that, I have to assume that. But it was like Jesus. I mean, that's scary.

Speaker 2: 1:33:36

Yeah, you could get involved in something you had no plans on getting involved in, you know. But I think what really bothered me is I knew that officer and I remember going into court handling my cases and he would be in there and we'd talk and you know, you saw what effect it has on a guy where he's not sure what his future is going to be. Is he going to be indicted?

Speaker 1: 1:33:53

Well, and it's not only that You've done something before where you feel like you were right, yeah, but after it happens, you think, oh man, did I? You know like, even if it's arguing with your girlfriend or whatever, you're like when you walk away, you're going, you're going. Eh, did I go too? I shouldn't have said that. You know what I mean, because I like, when I'm in the middle of a fight, I'm going to dig, I'm going to stab, I'm going to stab, I'm going to. You know, I mean, I'm going to do like it's about winning, oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:34:19

When I'm in the middle of an argument. I'll say some weird shit.

Speaker 2: 1:34:21

Then you leave, you go. I wish you can't eat words. You never say yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:34:24

You know what I?

Speaker 2: 1:34:25

mean Right, right, my wife one time I said something about how much mayonnaise she put on a sandwich. In the middle of an argument, I got you.

Speaker 1: 1:34:35

I'm going for the throat when we're arguing.

Speaker 2: 1:34:37

Well, you know what, and I regretted it.

Speaker 1: 1:34:40

I hear you, man.

Speaker 2: 1:34:41

I do too, and you know that the idea that when you get an argument, you should just walk away for 10 minutes is so valuable. It's so difficult to do while you're in the heat of it. Yeah, oh yeah, but it's such a valuable tool. Every time I've ever stepped away from an argument, I feel completely different five minutes later. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, but on that particular shoot, it was a good shoot, it was a justified shoot, and to wait a year and a half is just untenable.

Speaker 1: 1:35:05

So what happened to?

Speaker 2: 1:35:06

the officer that whole time. So eventually he was cleared, but it shouldn't have taken a year and a half. So we've really drastically reduced that time. So what happens in that year and a half? It's considered. You know, it's considered.

Speaker 1: 1:35:20

I'm talking about that poor officer.

Speaker 2: 1:35:21

Yeah, that's what I mean, well, typically, I mean he was still working, so he was paid leave. I don't remember exactly because I didn't handle the case as a prosecutor. I don't remember exactly what his status was, but just the mental anxiety of not knowing what's going to happen, and I really wanted to cut that down, especially in good shoots, I mean, you know. So what we've done is, when we receive a report now within two or three weeks, we've got an opinion because we don't want that to happen.

Speaker 1: 1:35:49

We don't want you to achieve that.

Speaker 2: 1:35:50

Well, we look at all the evidence. We look at all the evidence. Yeah, we look right away, we try to make it, we prioritize those cases.

Speaker 2: 1:35:58

Is there a committee for it? No, typically me and my chief of staff will look at it and then he typically writes the decision. And when it's written, what we like to do, especially in cases where there's a very clear shoot, is we don't send them through the grand jury, because I'm worried that the average person might not really truly understand what this officer is going through. And if I believe you know, I can be a gatekeeper. I can determine, like you remember, in the Michael Vick case down in when he was fighting dogs, yeah, the one DA got in a lot of trouble because he refused to present that case to the grand jury. Now, I'm not suggesting that was right or wrong, you know, I don't know the facts of that, but my point is I can act as that gatekeeper to go what even goes to the grand jury or not.

Speaker 1: 1:36:48

And I don't want to send cases. I don't believe in. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2: 1:36:48

Yeah, right, because that that you know, think now I'm prosecuting a case I don't believe in anymore.

Speaker 1: 1:36:50

No, because we need officers to be doing the job the right way they have to be. I mean, we have to.

Speaker 2: 1:36:52

That's the only way we can feel safe and Jim, you know, I'm just so lucky that I have so much police support, because that's how I got into politics is I would do this defense work and they would be, like you know, complaining to me about the stuff they were dealing with at the office, at the prosecutor's office, and I would hear that and hear that and eventually a couple of them were like why don't you run, you know, in like 16 and 2015. And I was like I don't know, you know, I kind of like being a defense attorney, I like being on my own, I like doing that stuff. And I thought about politics maybe, but I thought I'd be a little older when I started trying to do it. But they kind of convinced me that they wanted to change and I was so close to them that I saw what they were dealing with and so I got involved in politics. And that's kind of how I got involved.

Speaker 2: 1:37:32

It was really. It was really from the nudging of law enforcement. And luckily, you know, I get guys that come up to me all the time and they're like JD, thank you for at least allowing us to have a job where we feel safe to do the actions that we feel are necessary and we don't have to worry about, you know, some unreasonable person on the other side making judgments that are unreasonable about what we're doing. Sure, and I'm real proud of that, and we've drastically reduced the time it takes for that. Now there's going to be eventually a bad shoot and I'm going to have to deal with that. Do you know what I mean? And I'm ready to deal with that.

Speaker 2: 1:38:01

It's not like I believe. You know, law enforcement is always correct, but the vast majority of times, I do believe they are. No, that's, that's a good, that's a good concept, and I think the general public needs to understand that I, I I don't like the anti-police narrative. Yeah, I disagree, I disagree with it, and I find that, like you know, I don't tell someone how to deliver a baby because I don't deliver babies, right. So so when someone talks to me about this subject, you know I like to think that I'm an expert on it, because I see it, I've seen it every day for my professional life in the last 17 years.

Speaker 1: 1:38:33

Yeah, as soon as they get that rhetoric started coming out, like after that George Floyd stuff I started putting police badges on my patio. Yeah, so I have police badges from God. I've asked for them. I've got them all the way from Alaska, really, oh yeah, I've got a ton of them, yeah, and I put them all up just to support them, just to make sure that they know we support them.

Speaker 2: 1:38:52

They deserve it, they deserve it. I'm a big law enforcement guy.

Speaker 1: 1:38:55

Yeah, me too, I definitely am, but I mean, those were ones that I really thought that was heavy coming in for one. The story doesn't make sense to me and I'm not asking you to answer I'm just because I probably can't.

Speaker 2: 1:39:07

Anyways, it doesn't, I don't want you to yeah, but what I?

Speaker 1: 1:39:10

what I didn't like about it was that they had been to that house on numerous occasions and they kept telling them that the person moved, that they were new tenants there, oh really. And and somebody somewhere along the way went, yeah, they're a fucking liar. And just came in. Anyways, like it. Just that just doesn't sit well with me.

Speaker 2: 1:39:26

You know, I wish I knew the facts a little bit more.

Speaker 1: 1:39:28

I get that people would bullshit you. I get that. I do get that would happen. Yeah, cause I would do it, it happens.

Speaker 1: 1:39:34

I would definitely do it. I'm not saying I wouldn't, I'm just saying it just. It seems like you would look into it once it was said to you. I think, more than you would charge the door with 19 cops or 20 cops or whatever it was, and it just, it was just. That was a crazy thing, but at any rate that was that was my whole reason. I didn't mean to really bother who's Tabitha Angelo, who's that.

Speaker 2: 1:39:56

Oh, tabitha was a police officer in Lorain that had a couple issues. That was a case that was a couple years ago, was that under your watch.

Speaker 1: 1:40:08

It was under my watch. What was that? Do you remember anything about it?

Speaker 2: 1:40:12

See, these are cases where I'd like to prep before I come up, because I don't like to say things that's inaccurate. Do you know what I mean? I?

Speaker 1: 1:40:18

don't even know what it is, it's just punched up there. I know that we attempted to try to get her into diversion.

Speaker 2: 1:40:22

Because you know, I've been criticized for, oh, I remember who she is. Yeah, I've been criticized. I've been criticized about attempting to put police officers in diversion programs and the criticism that I receive is, hey, these officers should have a higher standard. The problem is I don't see that written in the code. Do you know what I mean? Meaning there's diversion, there's there's there's diversion. Programs are codified, meaning there's certain things you have to do to get in them Right, and typically it's that the victim has to be OK with, with the diversion and there has to be some kind of restitution given, right, ok, and so what I've done in my just because I did defense work enough to know that there's people we can save from having criminal records and they can still be productive citizens and probably never reoffend, and so I've doubled the amount of people we've placed into diversion programs from my predecessor.

Speaker 2: 1:41:17

Well, what does that create? Well, it creates, you know, now we've doubled the amount of restitution that's given to victims of crime, so we've doubled the amount of money that people have gotten back from crimes that have been inflicted upon them and we have a 0% felony recidivism rate, which means the ones we're choosing to put in the diversion programs are not reoffending. That's huge. That's saving taxpayers. I mean we've all made mistakes growing up where we could have been charged with. You know what I mean, and the idea that it should ruin someone's life for a lower level offense. Obviously, you can't have F1s and F2s and you know there's certain crimes or you know violent crimes are not subject to the diversion. But I just met enough defendants where we could save them. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 1:41:58

And so I have a very centrist— Well, isn't that really the point it's supposed to be? That's the point.

Speaker 2: 1:42:01

That's the point is rehabilitation more beyond, I mean, I think it's supposed to be, and I have a real centrist view on crime. It's that, hey, we should. We should be very serious about, about violent offenders and people that are really causing chaos in the community, but we should also be very cognizant of the fact that we can save people, yeah, and and I think we've done a really good job at doing that, and we've increased the amount of successful prosecution of high level felonies by like 12 to 15 percent since last administration. And sex crimes we've actually really targeted, so we've increased successful prosecution of high-level felony sex offenses by like 26 percent.

Speaker 1: 1:42:36

More than just the 54 count one.

Speaker 2: 1:42:38

Yeah, I mean, oh, yeah, definitely Just sex crimes in general have been an interesting target. How many cases do you?

Speaker 1: 1:42:44

see a day.

Speaker 2: 1:42:46

Well, we see about 2,000 a year. 2,000 a year, yeah, holy shit, that's eight a day.

Speaker 2: 1:42:52

Yeah, and we have so many assistant prosecutors. There's about 95 employees in my office and we've got 30 or 40 lawyers that are handling matters. Wait how many? There's about 95 employees, holy crap. Yeah, because it goes by population of your county. So we're like number nine out of 88. So we have a relatively high population, so we have offices that are bigger than 79 or something counties, wow and so we have a significant amount of employees.

Speaker 2: 1:43:21

So we get 30 or 40 lawyers there's civil division lawyers, there's criminal division lawyers, there's criminal division lawyers. We also have administrative staff that helps aid those lawyers in performing their work. Then we have a victim's advocate division where we have several victim advocates that help victims kind of maneuver their way through the system, because it can be kind of confusing and especially they can grow impatient, naturally because it doesn't happen as fast as they'd like it to. It doesn't happen as fast as I'd like it to either, by the way, and I have five investigators as well. So we have a significant staff and so it's a lot more people than people believe. I would have never guessed that, I mean I thought 12.

Speaker 2: 1:43:57

I mean, I honestly didn't think that, and there's some counties that have 12. You know what?

Speaker 1: 1:44:00

I mean or five, you know what I mean A smaller one.

Speaker 2: 1:44:01

I mean even my buddy in Huron County. You know he has a very small office and he has to prosecute cases himself because it's not big enough to really manage, sure, without that. But but yes, so each one of my assistant prosecutors might have 150 cases. Wow, yeah, no yeah. And they really have the most difficult job. One of their job is very difficult because they've got so many cases that they're dealing with and I really give it, I give a lot of credit to, to my assistant prosecutors and my entire staff.

Speaker 1: 1:44:32

I mean, I'm just lucky. I've got a lot of good people, you know, especially you do. I see the main core that I have and it's like, wow, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's a VIP up there. Yeah, that's it, yeah, that's a squad. Well, you.

Speaker 2: 1:44:41

Yeah, that's a squad. You know, jimmy, it's like I really believe I have my skill set, but I believe in having people around you that are smarter than you. Yeah, If you're in a room and you're the smartest individual, you're probably in the wrong room. That's what they say. It's true, man. I'm one of those guys where I like a meeting where we can talk about anything. Any idea is valuable and I'm not interested in credit. You know what I mean I. I. If it's not my idea, that's fine, you know what I mean I. I just want the best idea, and uh, and so I, I'd like to get people in a room and go hey, what are your thoughts on this? You know what I mean, what's the pros, what's the cons? And uh, and I find that one of the most important kind of character characteristics of a County prosecutor is the the ability to, to, to be wrong.

Speaker 2: 1:45:21

Yeah, do you know what I mean to go. Hey, listen, I was wrong about this, we got to fix it. Do you know what I mean? And sure, that was the most pressing thing, for nancy smith was, if we didn't provide justice to nancy smith and joseph allen, then there is no justice. Is that the one you're proudest of 100.

Speaker 2: 1:45:34

I mean, just, it created enemies. Do you know what I mean? I mean it creates enemies for you because there's people that are invested in that conviction. Do you know what I mean? Um, but it was so clearly the right thing to do that I I knew that there was going to be repercussions. I didn't think they would be as vicious as they have been.

Speaker 2: 1:45:52

Like what, what do you mean? Well, just what's going on? Just generally speaking with me, do you know what I mean? And in my whole situation politically, you think that's connected. Oh, it's all I mean. It's all a 100% connected. I mean, you know, listen, I mean I criticized people that that didn't want to be criticized. You know what I mean. Fair enough, and and so what happens is, you know, you know the sheriff department. You know he hired my predecessor, dennis will, to work for him, which is a lawyer in the sheriff department, which is unusual, anyways, you don't see many sheriff's departments that have lawyers on staff, and the reason you don't is because I'm their statutory lawyer. Right, right, right. And so he hired Dennis. And then, when, when he hired Dennis, things changed for me with, with Phil, with the sheriff, and our relationship soured and it was very clear on why it did you know? I mean it took, dennis, you know, three months to even concede to me in the last election.

Speaker 1: 1:46:36

I lost him as a customer, did you, I remember, cause you supported me, I supported you and he was. He was a visitor here three days a week. Right, he visited here three days a week for lunch, every day. But I guess I'll say I mean, he'd have a drink while he was here and I just didn't like it. Oh well, I just like I said, I'm a degenerate, but I got some morals.

Speaker 2: 1:46:58

There's boundaries to your degeneracy.

Speaker 1: 1:46:59

Yeah, I have morals, Like I'm not a prosecutor, so if I want a drink at lunch, so be it. You know what I'm saying. But when you're a prosecutor I don't feel like you have a drink and then go back and you know it alters your mind. You know what I mean. And I don't like pot, I don't like weed or anything.

Speaker 2: 1:47:15

I'm not saying he did that. I'm not saying that.

Speaker 1: 1:47:19

But I don't like anything that alters your mind. But if you do that on a weekend, or whatever that's a different story. But when you're doing it in the middle of your day, when your job is to prosecute people although I didn't realize he had 97 people going and he could just go take a nap I guess I didn't know that.

Speaker 2: 1:47:33

Right, right. Well, you know, what ended up happening too is, when my opponent left, then he went to the AG's office for a little while. He then he was hired by phil as well. Stomity, and it's a. It's, it's a. Really. Can you think of a less objective investigation other than the ones that are your political enemies? Are the ones actually investigating you? Yeah, the ones you just beat out I mean it's, it's like and it's just.

Speaker 2: 1:48:00

And the most difficult part for me is I'm very confident in my innocence, do you? You know what I mean. I'm very confident in my innocence. We have the evidence, but we also know that they were very strategic in when they did it. You know, if you do it so late in the game, I can't get in front of a judge fast enough to actually present my evidence.

Speaker 1: 1:48:17

And even if you could. It's just like somebody who gets charged with, say, child molestation and they never did it Right. Oh, it's devastating. Nobody ever finds out about that their life's ruined already.

Speaker 2: 1:48:31

It is because we've turned allegations into facts. And so what I can tell you is that, like I've never been more comfortable than I am in this case, I mean I'm just but it's very frustrating for me because, you know, there's going to be some people that believe it. Sure, absolutely. And we attempted to try to get the preliminary hearing, you know, before the election, because we were very anxious to get our evidence out there and show the world what's going on here. The luckily they're pretty incompetent at framing people. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Because the evidence that we have is overwhelming, but it's, it's been very frustrating for me, and now I kind of truly understand those, those several clients that I had that were innocent. I understand the frustration that they feel, no could and and and and the damage that they've attempted to do.

Speaker 1: 1:49:13

My reputation is severe and you're listen, you're, you're talking about it like when you're out and free. You haven't been arrested yet. Yeah, no, yeah, can you imagine what that was like five years into their prison sentence. It's unbelievable. No, I can't.

Speaker 2: 1:49:28

I don't think there's anything worse than someone going to prison for something they didn't do. I don't think there's anything worse. The difficult part for me is the news will kind of inaccurately say we've been indicted. I haven't been indicted, okay, there's been no grand jury, there hasn't been a probable cause hearing. For me, there's just allegations. Do you know what I mean? What does that mean?

Speaker 1: 1:49:48

Meaning you can charge somebody on a complaint. It's just a charge. It's inaccurate.

Speaker 2: 1:49:54

I haven't been indicted.

Speaker 1: 1:49:54

You're not indicted until you go in front of a grand jury. Oh, I got you.

Speaker 2: 1:50:04

Right now it's at the hasn't even determined whether it's probable cause to buying this thing over.

Speaker 1: 1:50:08

See, the problem is a guy like me. I don't know, I'm not an attorney, I'm not in the legal world.

Speaker 2: 1:50:10

I don't expect you to.

Speaker 1: 1:50:12

So when I I just assume, indictment is an indictment.

Speaker 2: 1:50:14

Yeah, you just assumed it when you saw me in court. I've been indicted, yeah. Oh, and that's what's been so disappointing. So frustrating because I know the average person doesn't have the time to really understand that you know what. I mean, and that's why it's been so damaging to me personally and so frustrating, and it angers me because of the timing was such where they knew that I wouldn't have enough time to kind of exonerate myself.

Speaker 2: 1:50:41

Yeah, they could drop the charges tomorrow? Yeah, but I will be exonerated. Do you know what I mean? And I'm very confident in that. I know I didn't do anything wrong. So now, have I made mistakes in my life? Yes, sure, but I am not guilty of these, these allegations.

Speaker 1: 1:50:55

Yeah, I was wondering about that because I'm going, here's a prosecutor but an attorney his whole life. Why would he make these? I just wouldn't. You know what I mean. It didn't seem like it would.

Speaker 2: 1:51:03

It's just not true, and it's been the most frustrating part for me.

Speaker 1: 1:51:06

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:51:07

Because my name means something to me.

Speaker 1: 1:51:08

You know what I mean. How do you think you'll do tomorrow?

Speaker 2: 1:51:10

I think we're going to win. You really believe it? Yeah, I do, I do. I think that— you guys don't do polls right. No, that the people kind of understand, and I think you know, especially in today's political landscape. They expect a tax 30 days out from an election and they expect allegations to happen. Do you know what I mean? And it's funny how they didn't happen before that point.

Speaker 1: 1:51:33

Yeah, you're going to be a Republican before you know it, hey.

Speaker 2: 1:51:38

I have a lot of Republican friends. Yeah, I'm sure. The funny part is I grew up in a very conservative area. You know Firelands is a very conservative working class. You know farming, community, rural, and so all my best friends are conservatives. It's Oberlin College though Well, oberlin's on the outskirts, you know what I mean, but it's kind of an island in the middle of a conservative sea.

Speaker 1: 1:51:55

But I'm saying when you went to Oberlin College, I mean you can't leave there and not wasn't a liberal.

Speaker 2: 1:52:02

Do you know what I mean In the sense of? But I was very. I was moderate. You know I still am. You know I'm a reasonable guy. I like to surround myself with reasonable people. If you're reasonable, we'll probably get along just fine, sure, no matter what wing you're from. But yeah, no, I mean so. I grew up in a real conservative area. My best friends are conservatives, and so I understand why they feel the way they do about certain issues. And the funny part is we always talk about the fact that, hey, if you have respect for that person that's on the other side, you could probably get 70 percent of stuff done.

Speaker 1: 1:52:30

Yeah, did you watch a new Reagan movie? No, I didn't. Is it good, is it? I mean the movie, the story is good. Yeah, acting's bad. It's not even the acting, it's the producer. Yeah, I mean, it's just shit, it's a shit movie it's sad when it has potential. Oh yeah, it's Reagan's story. It's got the greatest potential. Yeah, interesting. But the one thing I took away from the movie was that he told Scooter. He said but at six o'clock he said none of this matters. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:53:00

You know what I mean the, you know what I mean the next news cycle. You mean Is that what he was?

Speaker 1: 1:53:03

referring to no, he's saying after 6 o'clock. We're not on any opposite sides. We could sit drink together. We're buddies. You know what I'm saying, and I don't think any of that's going on right now.

Speaker 2: 1:53:16

Now, I think it's just straight hatred with everybody everywhere. You know, and I really try to really promote talking between the parties. You know, the reason I also believe I'm going to win is that I put the work in, and I've been putting the work in for three election cycles now. I mean, you know you still knocking on doors as many times as I can. You know, I started knocking on doors for this election in October of last year, ok, and and and I did it so heavy.

Speaker 2: 1:53:38

I remember when I was, when I was in 2015, when I ran. You know it's hard to raise money when you haven't proven yourself as a candidate, and so all I could do is just work harder. You know what I mean. So my dad, at 70 years old, would pick me up, man, and we'd go eight, nine hours a day and go walking door to door, and we'd hit hundreds of doors a day and I joked around that I never walked door to door, I ran. And there's, there's, there's funny, there's people I know that'll see me and be like I saw you running in a suit, dude down the street you know, and it's true, I really did run every time.

Speaker 2: 1:54:10

I'll be honest with you, I've never walked up to a house, I always run, and so when you do that enough, on a kind of the level that I did, it was like six months ahead of election, eight months. I didn't wait 30 days to do a cute little, you know photo op.

Speaker 2: 1:54:20

It was about really meeting voters at their door. And here's what you learn. You learn that nobody really knows who you are, because the average person is trying to make a living. They don't care who the county prosecutor is, they don't commit crimes Not until it's their problem or their family's problem, right, but you were lucky.

Speaker 2: 1:54:35

I was lucky if they recognized my name. Do you know what I mean? And it really checks egos, because the average, I think, politician believes that everybody knows who they are and that everyone knows what their positions are. And that's just so far from true. And you only would know that if you actually go to voters' houses and go. You know hi, my name's JD. And they go. Who are you?

Speaker 1: 1:54:54

Hey, who was Hillary's VP? Oh, man.

Speaker 2: 1:54:57

Who was it? Oh, the guy from Virginia, wasn't it? What was his?

Speaker 1: 1:55:03

name. Go ahead, you give us a hint. Gosh, it was a Saturday Night Live skit.

Speaker 2: 1:55:08

this weekend that no one knew who was the vice Nobody knew In fact they were calling him a different name.

Speaker 1: 1:55:12

Oh my gosh, it was Tim.

Speaker 2: 1:55:13

Yeah, it was Tim something. I can't remember his last name.

Speaker 1: 1:55:19

I can't think of what it was, either.

Speaker 2: 1:55:21

I mean it's so true though I mean it's so true, I wish people would really do more of that. And I continued. Even when I was able to raise more money because I'd proven myself as a, as a as a viable candidate, I still did the same thing. I still walked door to door and like I would have uh, you know, older couples that would see me coming, and it was probably second or third time I hit their door in like the last eight years, you know they go hey.

Speaker 2: 1:55:42

JD's back, you know. So they knew me already from just hitting their doors. And so I feel like you know, if you're willing to, if you want to win an election, you have to work harder than your opponent, and if you're willing to work harder because you know the most, the hardest things are usually the most productive. I mean, it is not easy going up the doors. You know what I mean. I mean I'm still surprised people answer the doors yeah, I don't, but they do. I don't either, but they do, they do. And it's amazing every time If it's just housewives, you're a good-looking guy.

Speaker 2: 1:56:11

You know what the funny part is? The average voter is probably 65.

Speaker 1: 1:56:14

You know what I mean. So it's really retirees. They definitely like good-looking guys.

Speaker 2: 1:56:18

It's really retirees, you know what I mean. And so I remember going up to the door and the only thing I always want to do is leave them with a smile, uh, that, and and never stay longer than they, you know. Then then you don't want to be asked to leave, you don't want to disrupt them. No, I want to be very quick, but if but, I want to offer them the opportunity to ask me questions, if they have them, sure, and as long as I know what I mean, and I really love the door-to-door stuff, and I think that's, you know, the reason we're going to win is because we were willing to put the work in, you know, and we've proven, we have proven results.

Speaker 2: 1:56:53

I mean, my opponent's been in, you know, he's been in that office for 20-something years. I think we've accomplished more in four years than they have, Wasn't the criminal division. Now he's involved in the drug task force the drug task force. But yeah, I mean, I'm just so proud of our accomplishments. I mean, crime is down. You know, the relationships between police is stronger than ever and they now have a place where they can come and give input and rather than me just waving my finger at them, telling them, whether wrong. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, and I show them respect and even when I disagree with them which is pretty rare, but sometimes when I've disagreed with them, I bring them in and I talk to them and say listen, this is how I'm feeling about this.

Speaker 1: 1:57:34

You got to get you a pit bull in your office. You've got 97 employees, just one To do the dirty work, to piss off the cops Just one that they know they did wrong if Bob came to see them. I mean, it makes a difference, it does? You know, it's always nice to have someone deliver bad news rather than you, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:57:51

But the truth of the matter is man, I bring them in and we talk yeah, and I'm very open with you. Know, tell me how you disagree with me, Chief, do you know what I want to do? They can change my mind and they know it. And I think that you know even defense attorneys that come in and pitch me. You know, pitch me. Yeah. If you've got an argument on why a guy deserves a break or a young woman deserves a break or something, I'm interested to hear it. You know, and because I'm open to that and I think that what really it takes is modesty and to be a good county prosecutor, I think you have to be modest, you can't be an egomaniac and you have to be willing to put yourself in other people's position.

Speaker 1: 1:58:31

But now you've got to have a judge out there for you too. That's like you work well with too, besides the police officer, right, we have.

Speaker 2: 1:58:36

So many judges, yeah, and ultimately the judge's sentence. So I'm not responsible for sentencing. I mean I can give my opinion on what the sentence should be, but ultimately judge's sentence. But you have a good relationship with the judges. Yeah, we have great judges, man, I mean I'm really proud of the bench that we have. I mean we have very, very reasonable, very smart judges that really try to do the right thing. That's awesome. Yeah, I'm really proud of the justice system in general. I mean it gets a lot of flack but I don't hear a lot of suggestions to improve it. It's like you know, I hear you complaining about it but I don't hear many suggestions. And I think that the law, the beautiful part about even the rules of evidence, are when you start to really understand them. Then you understand the public policy behind it. You go, wow, that's really smart.

Speaker 1: 1:59:23

Well, my wife will kill me if I don't ask you this question. So I have to ask you one question before we leave. Yeah, go ahead. That is, they won't allow us to put a basketball court that's portable with the basketball hoop aimed into the street?

Speaker 2: 1:59:37

Is that?

Speaker 1: 1:59:37

right, you mean at the home, yeah, in Carlisle Township and you live in Carlisle and they won't allow it. They won't allow it. They came down and told us we didn't move it and I actually went out and put a brand new driveway in so that I could put it up. Is your son out there hooping, so he could hoop?

Speaker 2: 1:59:49

yeah, but yeah, so you want something to be done about that.

Speaker 1: 1:59:53

Well, I mean it's done now. He hoops now in the driveway so it doesn't matter.

Speaker 2: 2:00:02

Oh, okay. So it's like Wayne's World when you've got a game off. Remember, on Wayne's World when they play hockey.

Speaker 1: 2:00:05

This is like a little dead-end street with.

Speaker 2: 2:00:07

Chip and.

Speaker 1: 2:00:07

Seal. We're on a dead-end street with Chip and Seal. I gotcha we're not on a neighborhood or a development and my wife goes. You've got to ask him about that.

Speaker 2: 2:00:18

I wish I could do something about it. You know what I mean Talk to your local official, you know. But I wish I could do something. I really do.

Speaker 1: 2:00:26

I told her I'd ask yeah, I appreciate that I got to do it, if I go home tonight, yeah, no, I get it.

Speaker 2: 2:00:30

I get it. Tell her I said hello, will do. You guys are good people, man, I really appreciate you coming out.

Speaker 1: 2:00:41

You got my vote for sure D tomorrow. You want to tell him anything you know?

Speaker 2: 2:00:44

you just said it Get out and vote. I mean, it's hard to complain about things when you don't vote, but I'm really proud of our results. I would ask the community to kind of look past the politics that are involved here and keep an open mind, because ultimately I'm going to be exonerated Awesome. Thank you very much, man, peace.